All times are UTC + 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 15:45 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
So I was out today and was looking for a pump timer. I found non. Heck this really is putting me off. more constraint than the budget is where to find the pieces. I'm from the Philippines.
But while driving back home I came up with the idea of a more controllable siphon with out a timer. And since I am not sure if I will ever build an AP system and before I forget it I am putting it here as others may benefit. While other may opt to just get a timer most people here is just playing . So lets play.

Its a very simple device and I am quite sure it will work. I am going to post the plan only and its up to you to come up how it will work:)

note: sump will be located under the drain box
Attachment:
LIMIT SWITCH.png
LIMIT SWITCH.png [ 15.83 KiB | Viewed 3408 times ]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
    Advertisement
 
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 17:29 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
any simple timer you plug any device into works fine, no such thing as a pump timer.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-Time ... SwN2VZUGW9
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SANSAI-24-Ho ... SwqVBZZL~B
etc


two problems with that design.

the ball valve isnt needed - if you adjust that wrong, you will just ruin the syphon.
when the syphon runs, it looks like it would likely fill and overflow your drain box long before the syphon stops.


you dont need to have a pump on a timer with a syphon, only if you dont use a syphon, but a small hole in standpipe.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 19:27 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God
User avatar

Joined: Apr 4th, '11, 13:18
Posts: 2347
Gender: Male
Are you human?: Not before 8am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
A well designed, well built bell siphon is a very simple, extremely reliable piece of equipment... What's the reasoning behind wanting to take something so simple and reliable, and complicate it?

Just recently, after reading a number of threads about "problem siphons", I timed a number of the flood & drain cycles in the display system in my shop over a period of a few days. I had my mobile phone sitting on my office desk in stopwatch mode and whenever I heard (and remembered) the bell siphon take it's last big gulp of air as it cut off at the bottom of a drain cycle, I hit the stopwatch... It was averaging just on 12 minutes to undertake a complete F&D cycle in an IBC type GB with 300mm gravel depth, flooding to about 260mm... and the largest time variance I recorded over dozens of cycles was 22 seconds.

Someone with a little more interest in numbers may want to roughly work out that percentage, but by my calculations it's a poofteenth of bugger all.

The siphon in that system has only twice stopped operating correctly in five years. Once because a customer played with one of the taps on the system. The second time because the system was left for 10 days in the middle of summer without being topped up, the water level in the FT dropped about 6", reducing the head assist on the pump, therefore slowing down the rate of water flow up into the GB. The system was basically running as constant flood when I got back from hol's, so I started adding top-up water to the FT, as the water level rose the pump flow increased and the siphon started working again on it's own.

The K.I.S.S. principle is the number one rule in aquaponics as far as I'm concerned... Don't over-complicate things and don't mess with what isn't broken.

_________________
Mr Damage - a.k.a: Yabbies
Owner at Perth Aquaponics - Aquaponic Consultant & Trainer
Trade certified Horticulturist & Cert IV TAE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 21:28 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
after reading this thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8621

I decided that I should go for the timed cycle. That is 15/ 45. Too bad I wasn't able to find a timer in our place. I come up with this in order to mimic the 15/45 pump cycle without a timer or as close to it and not to complicate things. Advantages. saves on bill and more harvest. well at least the test outcome according to the thread. And since I am a newbie I'd rather copy something that shows more harvest.


Last edited by julianbu on Jul 25th, '17, 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 21:33 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
Yavimaya wrote:
any simple timer you plug any device into works fine, no such thing as a pump timer. yes thats what I am meaning excuse my ignorance :dontknow:



http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-Time ... SwN2VZUGW9
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SANSAI-24-Ho ... SwqVBZZL~B
etc


two problems with that design.

the ball valve isnt needed - if you adjust that wrong, you will just ruin the syphon.
when the syphon runs, it looks like it would likely fill and overflow your drain box long before the syphon stops.yep its suppose to do that




you dont need to have a pump on a timer with a syphon, only if you dont use a syphon, but a small hole in standpipe.
Yes I know but thanks for helping out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 21:43 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
Mr Damage wrote:
A well designed, well built bell siphon is a very simple, extremely reliable piece of equipment... What's the reasoning behind wanting to take something so simple and reliable, and complicate it?



.


reasons. save on bill and more harvest viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8621


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 22:02 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPqP4qyrSiQ[/youtube]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 25th, '17, 22:49 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God
User avatar

Joined: Apr 4th, '11, 13:18
Posts: 2347
Gender: Male
Are you human?: Not before 8am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
If by "saves on bill", you are referring to the electricity costs of running a pump 15on/45off in the timed F&D system, as opposed to running the pump non-stop in a siphoned F&D system... That's a fallacy!

To turn over the same volume of water through your grow beds every hour, the timed F&D system at 15on/45off requires a pump with 4x the flow rate of the pump in the siphoned F&D system... and a pump that is 4x the size, uses well over 4x the electricity... Just as an example (because I know their wattage off the top of my head), and Aquapro AP3000DW pump uses 35w and an Aquapro AP6000DW pump uses 95w, so the pump output in this case is doubled, but the electricity usage has nearly tripled.

The benefits of a siphoned F&D system far outweigh any perceived benefits of a timed F&D system in my opinion, ie:

- Pump can be 4x smaller, so a lot cheaper to buy, and cheaper to run for the same volume of water per hour through the GB.
- Pump runs 24/7, so less wear than if continuously re-starting.
- You don't have to worry about a pump restarting if it's running non-stop.
- There are no moving parts to wear out or fail in a siphon.
- No timer to fail, plus no cost of purchasing a timer.
- No small drain holes near the base of the standpipe to clog with bio-film, leaves, gravel etc.
- More aeration of water in the system than a timed F&D system.
- More water to gravel contact time, so bio-filtration benefits.

If by "more harvest" you are referring to the final yield of the three systems in the comparison test, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time since I read the thread (and I'm not about to do it again), but from memory initially there was a slight benefit in growth rate in favour of the constant flood system, but both the timed and siphoned F&D systems were pretty close to each other on growth rate and ended up catching up to the CF... and in the end the yield on all three systems was much the same... That's what I recall at least.

In the last few months I've had the privilege of access to a lot of design information and ongoing data and research from many of the largest commercial aquaponics systems that have started up in the last few years worldwide. Those that I’ve seen are all running gravel grow beds in their systems in addition to DWC (ie: hybrid systems), and they are running siphoned F&D... They do that for a reason, it's cheap, easy, and reliable.

_________________
Mr Damage - a.k.a: Yabbies
Owner at Perth Aquaponics - Aquaponic Consultant & Trainer
Trade certified Horticulturist & Cert IV TAE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 01:43 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Aug 26th, '10, 07:17
Posts: 8916
Gender: Male
Are you human?: YES
Location: Oregon, USA
Seems unnecessarily complicated to me also - with the siphon operating the number of turnovers per hour usually isn't that important. The ones I had turned over every 6 minutes and I've seen a huge amount of variation here without seeing problems with growing the plants or fish :dontknow: . Depending on your pump Mr Damage may be right about the power usage. Obviously if you were going to use the same pump either way, running it less would save you money and if you were using a different pump then you'd have to compare the energy usage.

Yavimaya wrote:
the ball valve isnt needed


+1 Siphons are sensitive to flow rate. If you're thinking to adjust the flow out to the drain box with this you might kill your siphon.

If you can find a timer, great, if not a float switch might get the job done with some modifications to the setup.

--------------------------------

Mr Damage wrote:
To turn over the same volume of water through your grow beds every hour, the timed F&D system at 15on/45off requires a pump with 4x the flow rate of the pump in the siphoned F&D system... and a pump that is 4x the size, uses well over 4x the electricity... Just as an example (because I know their wattage off the top of my head), and Aquapro AP3000DW pump uses 35w and an Aquapro AP6000DW pump uses 95w, so the pump output in this case is doubled, but the electricity usage has nearly tripled.


This isn't always the case and often the efficiency of the pump is greater at the larger sizes, not just because the pump is more efficient but also because the pipe size may increase to handle the increased flow rate. To illustrate my point about the pumps, have a look at the pump chart for the laguna pond pumps on this page - https://www.amazon.com/Laguna-Max-Flo-Electronic-Waterfall-Filter/dp/B000HAQPPW

Even though the 2400 model pumps 4X the volume of water that the 600 model does it only uses about 3.1X the energy. The 4200 pumps more than 4X the volume of the 900 and uses less than 3X the energy.

You'll find that head height also plays a part because many times the smaller pump can't pump as high so the energy usage in relation to volume of flow at increased head height goes up faster (or maybe I should say sooner) than for the larger pumps.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 06:44 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
Mr Damage wrote:

The benefits of a siphoned F&D system far outweigh any perceived benefits of a timed F&D system in my opinion, ie:

- Pump can be 4x smaller, so a lot cheaper to buy, and cheaper to run for the same volume of water per hour through the GB.
- Pump runs 24/7, so less wear than if continuously re-starting.
- You don't have to worry about a pump restarting if it's running non-stop.
- There are no moving parts to wear out or fail in a siphon.
- No timer to fail, plus no cost of purchasing a timer.
- No small drain holes near the base of the standpipe to clog with bio-film, leaves, gravel etc.
- More aeration of water in the system than a timed F&D system.
- More water to gravel contact time, so bio-filtration benefits.


.



I think you are correct in stating these. I will use smaller pump. timer problem, solved!!!

Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 08:54 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
I'm curious how much water volume turn over per square meter of planting area is ideal. Then of course there should be enough nutrient conversion area/ volume.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 12:09 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God
User avatar

Joined: Apr 4th, '11, 13:18
Posts: 2347
Gender: Male
Are you human?: Not before 8am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
There are a number of ratios (gravel, water, fish, sqm of GB etc) that should be adhered to fairly closely. For the sake of keeping the explanation as simple and clear as possible, basically you want:

- A 300mm gravel depth is desirable in the GB's, flooded to about 250-260mm max.

- A Wet Gravel:Fish ratio of 25L:1 for fast growing edible fish (Tilapia, Trout etc), or 20L:1 for slower growers (Silver Perch etc).

- Ideally there should be a Wet Gravel:Water ratio in the system of around 1:1 (fairly flexible)

Stick to these numbers and you won't go wrong. The ratio of Wet Gravel:Fish will keep your fish healthy, and the 300mm depth of gravel in the GB allows a good number of fish in ratio to each sqm of GB, providing a suitable amount of nutrient per sqm of GB for most commonly grown vegetables.

_________________
Mr Damage - a.k.a: Yabbies
Owner at Perth Aquaponics - Aquaponic Consultant & Trainer
Trade certified Horticulturist & Cert IV TAE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 15:28 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
Mr Damage wrote:
There are a number of ratios (gravel, water, fish, sqm of GB etc) that should be adhered to fairly closely. For the sake of keeping the explanation as simple and clear as possible, basically you want:

- A 300mm gravel depth is desirable in the GB's, flooded to about 250-260mm max.

- A Wet Gravel:Fish ratio of 25L:1 for fast growing edible fish (Tilapia, Trout etc), or 20L:1 for slower growers (Silver Perch etc).

- Ideally there should be a Wet Gravel:Water ratio in the system of around 1:1 (fairly flexible)

Stick to these numbers and you won't go wrong. The ratio of Wet Gravel:Fish will keep your fish healthy, and the 300mm depth of gravel in the GB allows a good number of fish in ratio to each sqm of GB, providing a suitable amount of nutrient per sqm of GB for most commonly grown vegetables.


Thanks a lot you impart a very important knowledge in just a short post :D . But this of course applies to grow beds only. On this link is a system similar to what I am planning only mine is vertical and trough type.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAeJ5RwqPFQ. At 240 explains how the system works. Or should I just calculate the area of the trough and add a proportionate bio filter? say make the grow bed deeper?
I think the most important thing in AP is balance. Once it is balance it runs with little attention.

PS i miss the volume flow rate :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 18:18 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God
User avatar

Joined: Apr 4th, '11, 13:18
Posts: 2347
Gender: Male
Are you human?: Not before 8am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Yep, sorry, forgot about that one... Ideally you want to try and turn over your FT water volume through your gravel media beds at least once per hour.

_________________
Mr Damage - a.k.a: Yabbies
Owner at Perth Aquaponics - Aquaponic Consultant & Trainer
Trade certified Horticulturist & Cert IV TAE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Jul 26th, '17, 20:34 
Offline
Xtreme Contributor
Xtreme Contributor

Joined: Jul 20th, '17, 16:19
Posts: 145
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: philippines
Thanks, now this is easy math 400 l/h pump for a 400 l fish tank


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Portal by phpBB3 Portal © phpBB Türkiye
[ Time : 0.141s | 18 Queries | GZIP : Off ]