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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 04:17 
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LIKE MOST THINGS IN LIFE THERE ARE SILVER LININGS TO BE FOUND.
IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VISIT http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9124 THERE MAY BE A RE-CAP OF PEOPLES FINDINGS AND REASONINGS ON THE BENEFITS OF KEEPING SOLID FISH WASES BOTH IN THE SYSTEM AND SPECIFICALLY IN THE GROWBEDS WITH THE PLANTS




In my studies, most systems setups or theories suggest "removing" solid fash waste or using it for fertilizer on soil-based plantings or composting.

From what I understand, boiled down, plants don't want fish waste, they want worm waste;
and worms don't want fish waste, they want the bacteria feeding on the fish waste.
Therefore, I would think that the fish waste solids, indirectly, are an important and integral, and in fact, key part of the system. (obviously in general, but still often discarded)
Personally, I would use some particular filter or chamber ("Waste Bacrifier"?) to keep recycling the fish waste and producing the bacteria that the worms want, with protein/particulate scrubbers/fractionators there and in one or more other parts of the system to remove fish wastes and reintroduce them back into the "Waste Bactrifier" to make the best use of the fish waste.

I have two questions:
#1: Why isn't this already a common key component of aquaponics systems? (Or have I missed something?)
#2: What would be the best filter/chamber for doing this?

- I know that especially in simple (media grow beds, etc) systems, that the fish waste incorporates into the growth media where worms feed on it, but I think there must be a more refined way to do things...
I have been toying around with a couple ideas, one being a two-stage perlite filter system, one one side acting as an anaerobic system, and on the other side, cycled with bubbler(s) for aerobic action, then through a Protein/Particulate scrubber/Fractionator to send the water to grow beds while keeping any solids which have gotten through the system back into the "Waste Bactrifier".
What I still van't keep straight in my head is: Should I first do anaerobic to feed the aerobic, or visa-versa???

Any thoughts/ideas on how nest to do this would be much appreciated...


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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 04:42 
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R9X wrote:
I have two questions:
#1: Why isn't this already a common key component of aquaponics systems? (Or have I missed something?)

It is...
Quote:
#2: What would be the best filter/chamber for doing this?

In media filled grow beds... with compost worms added... :wink:

Quote:
- I know that especially in simple (media grow beds, etc) systems, that the fish waste incorporates into the growth media where worms feed on it, but I think there must be a more refined way to do things...
I have been toying around with a couple ideas, one being a two-stage perlite filter system, one one side acting as an anaerobic system, and on the other side, cycled with bubbler(s) for aerobic action, then through a Protein/Particulate scrubber/Fractionator to send the water to grow beds while keeping any solids which have gotten through the system back into the "Waste Bactrifier".
What I still van't keep straight in my head is: Should I first do anaerobic to feed the aerobic, or visa-versa???

Any thoughts/ideas on how nest to do this would be much appreciated...


Why do any of it... if you can simply acheive all you want to with simple flood & drain media filled grow beds with worms...

Deliberatley trying to create anaerobic zones/proceeses in grow beds would be fraught with danger....

Removing solids... putting them through a digester... and feeding it back into the system... is common place... in raft style systems...

And very probably anaerobic de-nitrification takes place in such digesters...

I'm just not sure what exactly it is that you're trying to acheive external to your AP system... that you can't acheive internally... :dontknow:

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 05:05 
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R9X wrote:
perlite filter system


Maybe give perlite a search and find out what happens when you put it into an AP system.

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 05:14 
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I'm assuming he plans to use it in some sort of sealed "pressure" type external filter Duff...

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 05:36 
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All those ideas may work BUT if it aint broke don't fix it is my motto. The fish waste goes into the GB where it is aerobically broken down with the worms finishing the job. The system is simple and proven, why complicate it?

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 07:52 
(1) From my small scale playing around with this sort of thing, I find that what best serves the plants is a fluid (water) loaded with nutrients, but not necessarily solids.
(2) What I want to focus on is to get away from a 'flood and drain' type of system, and into a constant slow trickle or flow for several reasons, not the least of which is maximum uptake of the nutrients from the water as it goes through the system.
(3) I don't want my plants growing in fish waste. Worms in the planting bed, maybe, maybe not. I would rather have a separate worm bed somewhere between the fish and the grow bed(s).
(4) "if it ain't broke don't fix it" - is one of the greatest obstacles to progress and invention - why fix it if it ain't broke? - to make it better.
-"It ain't broke" - really? are you sure about that? crude aquaponics is completely problem free?, maintenance free?, entirely self-sufficient?....
(5) Hey, this is after all one of the most productive toys or hobbies I can enjoy, and I like refining it all, incorporating choice and options, learning and improving things as I go. If I want to add a new barrel or piece of tuperware to the system that actually serves a purpose and makes things better - than its still a supposedly somewhat free country.
(6) One MAJOR consideration that many aquaponics systems do not take into account is that they have to feed the fish. - Why??? you can incorporate a far better diet for the fish without having to come up with fish food, automatic feeders, etc. - The right plants, tubifex, daphnia, occasional earthworms, etc etc. that can breed along side (but mostly separated) the fish, or that find their way into the fish tub(s) periodically through inventive system design, etc. make for happy fish and less work and expense on my/your part.

I am working toward something close to a closed ecosystem, 80%-95% self sufficient and needing nothing input but a little water now and then, and occasional maintenance or upgrade.

To all concerned - read my signature - that should explain a lot.


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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:02 
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Good luck R9X!

The hazard with concentrating on the DIY engineering aspects of AP is that you can end up fiddling endlessly, while not growing as much fish and plants as you could with a "crude" gravel bed flood and drain AP system, which BTW is the system to beat. If you can grow more fish and vegetables per $ with less maintenance than a gravel bed flood and drain setup then you've succeeded.

Typically trying to control all the parameters through human engineering is wasteful compared to just letting the small life forms who do this for their livelihood get on with it.

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:32 
"you can end up fiddling endlessly, while not growing as much fish and plants as you could with a "crude" gravel bed flood and drain AP system"
- I am not a commercial grower, I am doing this for my own enjoyment and to produce my own resources. This is not a race or a competition.
However, if it can be done better, then it will turn out better.

"just letting the small life forms who do this for their livelihood get on with it." - That is exactly what I am doing - letting the life forms specialize in what they do, giving them the best of what the system has to offer to let them, and keeping them somewhat separated so that one does not eat the other out of existence.

Regarding any other replies: hey guys - you're on notice... One thing I hate about forums is how people love to spew negatives and beat down people and ideas. If that's all people can do, don't waste your time, my time, and everybody else's time replying in that manner. If you have a better idea - than by all means, lets hear/see it!... I love alternatives and new ideas, and have absolutely no use whatsoever for stuff that does not help. - okay???


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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:36 
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Mate, you can do what you want as far as I am concerned - it is a free country BUT how are you going to get a closed system to run without nutrient input?

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:40 
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I'd your system will be closed them you need to replace the nutes you take out if it (I.e in plant uptake then plant removal) with more nutes (fish food)

Simply growing plants in the system to feed the fish will not provide a closed loop system, unless you let the veggies break down, abd decompose abd release nutes back into the system

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:45 
People are making some really bad assumptions here....
I have gone beyond the mere basics, and don't want to have to explain what should already be obvious basic principles of this sort of thing.
Did I make a mistake joining this forum? I came here to get some helpful ideas, and have not seen one yet...


Last edited by R9X on Feb 21st, '11, 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:47 
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well.....

maybe you are in the wrong place......most of us like to use the KISS method...

I would be willing to look at pics and see specs and look at how much your system provides


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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:50 
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R9X wrote:
In my studies, most systems setups or theories suggest "removing" solid fash waste or using it for fertilizer on soil-based plantings or composting.


All the waste is deposited into my scoria filled growbeds.

R9X wrote:
From what I understand, boiled down, plants don't want fish waste, they want worm waste;
and worms don't want fish waste, they want the bacteria feeding on the fish waste.


I dont have worms in my system....so that theory goes out the window. My plants still grow and grow quite well.

R9X wrote:
Therefore, I would think that the fish waste solids, indirectly, are an important and integral, and in fact, key part of the system. (obviously in general, but still often discarded)
Personally, I would use some particular filter or chamber ("Waste Bacrifier"?) to keep recycling the fish waste and producing the bacteria that the worms want, with protein/particulate scrubbers/fractionators there and in one or more other parts of the system to remove fish wastes and reintroduce them back into the "Waste Bactrifier" to make the best use of the fish waste.


Wouldnt the most efficient process to just have a hydroponic system and feed the plants with pure nutrients?

R9X wrote:
Regarding any other replies: hey guys - you're on notice... One thing I hate about forums is how people love to spew negatives and beat down people and ideas. If that's all people can do, don't waste your time, my time, and everybody else's time replying in that manner. If you have a better idea - than by all means, lets hear/see it!... I love alternatives and new ideas, and have absolutely no use whatsoever for stuff that does not help. - okay???


Not sure how to response to this comment. hopefully I havent knocked your idea by saying I use a media filled growbed, I dont use worms and hydroponics is more efficient delivery of nutrients.

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 08:51 
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R9x think of it as constructive criticism

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PostPosted: Feb 21st, '11, 09:00 
I'm not going to continually re-explain basic concepts or explain that I am already well familiar with basic concepts.

If a person just wants to do the same old thing the same old way and never try to do better then THEY should wonder why they bother to join a forum.

I am here to share ideas - which, I suspect, is the whole point here.

If all certain people are going to do is be unproductive, not contribute anything helpful, or treat others like idiots while demonstrating ignorance - go pull the wings of flies or play video games or something.


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