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PostPosted: Jul 20th, '16, 09:17 
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how are you going to build the channels and support them ?
do you have some material or product already in mind ?

What are the dimensions of the channels and proposed depth of water ?


I guess you get your volume from being long - but water has quite a bit of weight.
Plus plants on top of that.

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PostPosted: Jul 20th, '16, 09:28 
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Also, how will you be harvesting the top ones?


It may be better to have them all ground level as each DWC seems to be (from my rough calculations) around 6.5 tons. I could be wrong there, and correct me if so.

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PostPosted: Jul 20th, '16, 20:50 
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almost,,

5040 Kg if 30cm filled. plus we gave our calcs an extra 504x2 Kg for the heaviest possible plant, so you are almost right when we are at 6 tons.

A solid steelframe will do it. In the scratch it looks like 2 stands but in total are 8 in there, 140mm H Bars, plus a square from 120mm/120m box steel.

The foundation will end up with 1102 Kg on each one cbm Block and to keep all in position another ring has to be made.. concrete and galv Steel is quite cheap in Thailand, the footplates spread the force it to 0.122 kg per squarecentimeter.
I am only useless in plumbings but
statics on Shipdecks and load calulations are Part of my daily bread.

The only thing that is not ramaged by our Buffalo is a rolling A shaped Scaffold that worked very good and is also done by static calculations. We tried to flip it over with 6 persons hanging over the side, no way to get even one wheel off the ground.. The design was actually made with 4 extensions for 9.5 m and we are just going touching the 4m marker.
It has a Veggie Box storage and a stack box for the rafts that they stay wet and the underneath growth is not falling off so we safe as much bacteria growth as possible even here.
You can harvest 8 rafts 120x120cm before have to go down.

I might be all looking a bit expensive but see the German Bunkers, they are still standing and many have been tried to demolish with the result that in a radius of 3 Km all windows of the Houses were gone.
the costs will not pay back in one year but it will made for lasting.

The Throughs will be Marine plywood and Epoxy (used for fish ponds in Germany) inlay. Supported with Box steel off cause.
Still another option was a nice offer from Thai PE using 620mm half PE Pipes, but they are round and that would become to an issue for clogging by roots. (says a lousy plumber)


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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '16, 03:56 
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You should really consider the advice of the other guys about the dual-loop system. Having a closed loop becomes a pain especially if you are counting on revenue. If your plant's are disconnected you can blast them with neem if necessary. PH too high, you can drop it fast and all kinds of other things and not worry about how it will affect your fish. Also I think you've got to build a mineralzation tank in there somewhere to maximize available nutrients for your plants.
Ambitious project and good luck!

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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '16, 09:53 
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Exciting stuff.

Will there be a platform on each level for harvesting? I remember a guy on here once built something similar (but with pipes), and he only realised what a pain it was to harvest once it was built. i think it went under soon after.
I will try to find the thread I am taking about.-

Is there a reason it cannot be built on the ground? Buffalo insurance?

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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '16, 11:03 
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I have only my work computer here and thought I had some pics somewhere about this scaffold.
The A Scaffold is basically a ladder that runs over the A frame and you can move the walk roster in height where you need it for harvest on the ringht side is a kind of slider where the Boxes with your harvest is beein piled up and on the left side a small box for the floating rafts.
I am still working on an idea to let the rafts working as a production belt, one end planting and the other side harvesting, and this scaffold will only have the function for control works inbetween.

a scratch will follow the coming days.

If you build it on the ground, you have at least to make (waste) each pair of grow beds 80cm walking space and I need the tanks underneath as a cooling accumulator. Vertical costs a lot more but on a long term it will pay back.


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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '16, 11:45 
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Sounds logical.

Good luck. Can't wait to see the photos.

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PostPosted: Jul 21st, '16, 21:45 
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The loop wasn't hard to create as I went down to the engine Room of our vessel the engineer showed me a lot loops.. makes sense.
Now i have to make my mind about how to get a 2nd Filter system placed, in case of emergeny I was first caring the plants and bacterias.

I might just go for a simple setup that I can filter the fishwater if antibiotics are used in a radial and sponge filter, some aerators and here we go.. space is here the question again.
My thoughts are that this separate loop will only be needed for a temporary time so the filters could be much smaller and freshen up the water by direct exchange from the pond, The pondwater was always clean since 5 years and full of healty life.

The water from the with any fish desease polluted fish tanks could be given to the trees, high gardens and flower beets.

and off cause, here a first scratch..;

Attachment:
re designe for sending.GIF
re designe for sending.GIF [ 71.82 KiB | Viewed 882 times ]


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PostPosted: Jul 22nd, '16, 01:52 
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Well well well,

our chief engineer has got a hang on my project and took the drawing bach to the engine room. As he came after about 3 hrs back he has some issues and complaints.

a) a loop, i had forgotten to get rid of the antibiotics and deseases and actually i was sending them back into the system. OUUUH! bloody plumbing. :upset:

b) he has been a few times on our land and told me: "you have millions of liter of water in your pond and its always been full of healthy fish.
Why bother with extra filters, just separate the individual infected tanks, give them critters a shot of antibiotics and flush the tank manually with pond water, can't getting worse for the fishes, can it?
The polluted water goes into the gardens, flowers, lawn and trees..

c) why not combine pipes, overflow as emergency sytem and sludgewater as drainpipes.. :support:

Here we go again, drawing Nr: (did anyone count them in this thread?)
BUT it's getting better and better.
The Loop is done!

Attachment:
New Design GIF.GIF
New Design GIF.GIF [ 85.27 KiB | Viewed 875 times ]



cheers guys :wave:


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PostPosted: Jul 22nd, '16, 03:20 
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OK, so the bypass just shunts the water around and around through the plant system and the filters. What happens to the filters if you need to treat the plants. I don't see this as a huge issue but there could be a situation where you need to do this so it might still be a good idea to go to the sump with the pump. Watch out if you are going to flush the tanks with the pond water and do it slowly enough that the fish don't go into shock from the changes to their water.


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PostPosted: Jul 22nd, '16, 07:37 
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Emergency sump: Are the overflows draining into the sump?

If so were is that water pumped too?

There is no pump showing in this sump, so how does the water flow from that sump?

If all the DWC's are above these tanks, Why do you need a Return Sump?

Why the overflow, showing from the FT to the RFF?

Why would you put a By-Pass line from this sump, into the line from the FT's to the RFF?

Why does it show the Solids Removal going back to this sump?

Does the Refill from the pond goes to the Emergency Sump and the RFF?

If your taking out the solids from the FT's direct to the outside, why would you need a RFF for?

The 3 filters after the RFF collect or capture the fines in the water, why would you need a Solids Removal from these 3 filters?

So what's the height difference from the Main Pump up to the Manifold for filling the DWC's?

How big is the GH for this set-up above?

You need to do some elevation drawings along with any floor layout, then you will see were your spaghetti bowl of pipes go.

It would also be good idea to list the capacity volumes of all your tanks, no matter if its a sump, or filter.

Along with that the demensions of these are good to set up for any engineer drawings. Even the distances from each other vertical and horizontal.

You did say you were a engineer of many trades except for plumbing, but what I've seen so far is a person with a Sketchup program having fun.


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PostPosted: Jul 22nd, '16, 19:45 
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I am sorry but after reading this and having maybe only a limited knowledge of the commercial side of hydro or Aquaponics within Thailand,you are on a road to failure,cost per head of what ever your growing is the bottom line. With lettuce the best you can expect in Bangkok is 120 Baht per kilo,then take from that transport and I know for a fact that lion air will transport from Chiang Rai to Bangkok for 10 Baht per kilo,so your at 110,transport to the airport,then wastage etc etc your margin is so small a build like this is doomed to fail,a commercial greenhouse near me MUST sale 40 kilos per month just to pay the electric bill.

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PostPosted: Jul 22nd, '16, 20:19 
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Cheers old Prpspector,

That sounds really as a professional technical review note, much appreciated and sure we still find some oops..

Here we go:

Emergency sump: Are the overflows draining into the sump?
The overflows will be as soon an emergency occurs used as an emergency line. The Fish tanks can be individual switched in case it is only one single tank affected.
The water goes from the pond into the emergency tank, then via overflow into the fish tank and as the emergency tank is separated the sluge line will be opened and the filter line closed. This shuts the affected tank off the system and filters.

If so were is that water pumped too?
will be sprinkled on the garden, trees and lawn

There is no pump showing in this sump, so how does the water flow from that sump?
These two sumps on the grey background are high raised and gravity will do the job.

If all the DWC's are above these tanks, Why do you need a Return Sump?
seems for me a good opinion to have a check on the water and catch some pieces out before it gets in the fish tanks. Just a safety measuremant and extra spot where some more oxygen can be added.

Why the overflow, showing from the FT to the RFF?
was yesterday 01am as I was doing this drawing somehow here is something doubled up and needs a change :whistle:

Why would you put a By-Pass line from this sump, into the line from the FT's to the RFF?
to shut down every individaul filter separately for maitenance and cleaning.

Why does it show the Solids Removal going back to this sump?
The sump is higher as the rest of the pipe so it will flow as well into the garden and because it is higher i can use it to give the entire system from time to time a blow through, if necessary usind a dive pump and connect a hose.

Does the Refill from the pond goes to the Emergency Sump and the RFF?
yes the red dots are ment to be valves so i can refill the sytem through the filters and als cut the connection an run it as emergency for the affected fish tanks if needed.

So what's the height difference from the Main Pump up to the Manifold for filling the DWC's? How big is the GH for this set-up above?
will be about 3.6meter, i might go another 20cm depending on the greenhouse.. The electric comes from solar so the pump will be sufficient to have a turnover of max 2hrs in the fish tanks. 5000gh is focussed on, Oase, a factory of my hometown has such a pump available with just under 1000 W.

last questions,
The solids removal is only for the maintenance when the tanks getting flushed.
I have here in the north sea a company laptop and all my design plans are in Thailand
so actually with nothing I had to go back to basic with paint.
Some drawings vertical and measurements will be added into it as soon we have some weather days coming ahead. i am still on a project and these are just before going to sleep and free my head from the project pressure.

Thank you very much for your pointings, sure the one or other step here is not neccessary or can do better.. Will be nice to hear from you again. And off cause all others the brought the last drawing together.

Will


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PostPosted: Jul 23rd, '16, 01:03 
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dasboot wrote:
I am sorry but after reading this and having maybe only a limited knowledge of the commercial side of hydro or Aquaponics within Thailand,you are on a road to failure,cost per head of what ever your growing is the bottom line. With lettuce the best you can expect in Bangkok is 120 Baht per kilo,then take from that transport and I know for a fact that lion air will transport from Chiang Rai to Bangkok for 10 Baht per kilo,so your at 110,transport to the airport,then wastage etc etc your margin is so small a build like this is doomed to fail,a commercial greenhouse near me MUST sale 40 kilos per month just to pay the electric bill.


FAILURE in this case is the whole design, it going to cost him 10 times what is normal to raise the same amount of any commercial greenhouse.

Going with a BATO bucket system, you'd have far less equipment needed, to grow the same amount as any other system. You can grow 2 indeterminate tomato plants for 12 months of the year in a Bato bucket of 11 liter capacity.


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PostPosted: Jul 23rd, '16, 03:18 
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I understand your doubts.
you know Thai people are happy with an income.
When the farmer near you has to sell 40Kg salad then it is what i have learned on the road of self employment time to carry on, grow and make it profitable.
My family in Holland and Germany have about 60000 sqm of Greenhouses and therefrom they have a margin of 4-8%
Sounds familiar to what you stated above reegarding your neighbor?

From a certain amount of Greehouse space you WILL need to produce to order. That is why I go first for the 1800sqm and not plastering the entire 20000sqm in one go.
Let them people (and myself) learn and when they understand the story there is all time and more important enough financial backup to cover 5 and more years without scratching the pension savings or cutting my holidays and beers.

Good thing for us is, we are just 1 hr drive away from Bangkok but we also have the advantage of having the Tapong/Rayong fruit/veggie market 1 Km away, where you find all these salesmans from Tesco, BigC, macro and I have been talking more than once with some of these at a dinner.

I know enough of project business and since 25 years I am running worldwide one after the other talking some of them 800Mil - 4 Bill EUR so you do invest you take risk, you do not invest you might no been born for it or just are too afraid of failures. Only failures are learning but beside they are not an option, you can avoid any then do so.

These drawings here are giving just some Indications or do you think I will stand there with 15 farmers and rigg up a system?

But sure its good when you are able to look the (semi) professionals on the fingers.
When money talks in Thailand the greed is the Frontman and runs before Performance and Quality and I am not that kind of guy who closes an eye. Hire and fire until the expectations are reached is my job. Mr nice guy is not here, not in a pennyjob and not in a multimillion $$$ Job.
. Sure is only that i want quality of the highest standart and I am the one who controls the works.

Beside of it:
These forums are nice to get the head off the job for some minutes as others playing the entire day with their mobile phone or going fishing.
I am always in a project preparation, one in Execution and one "aftersale" = lessons learned. Not to think in procedures. method statements, approvals, insurance, limits and a long tail behind is relaxing for me and makes my head clear for serious issues. The Greenhouse is not paying my boni at the end but if I stay sharp on my job, that will bang on.

Cheers

Will


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