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PostPosted: Jul 23rd, '16, 05:23 
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"From a certain amount of Greehouse space you WILL need to produce to order. That is why I go first for the 1800sqm and not plastering the entire 20000sqm in one go."

So the system u have drawn how many sq/m does it cover of the 1800 sq/m greenhouse?

What is the 20000 sq/m represent in one go

What is the width x length of the GH, and the height of the sidewalls, and the peak of the roof height?

Without that information it hard for someone to give advice.

Same with your 6000 l tanks what are the dememsions?

You stated above that you want a 2 hr turnover of the FT's

48000 l = 12680 gl's / 2 = 6340 gl's/hr. How will a 5000 gl/hr pump that you stated keep up?

Then look at the size of the RFF, even looking at it, can you imagine 106 gl's/min hitting that, besides if you want a 2 hr turnover you are talking that amount going thru all those filters and ending up at intake of the pump. Won't happen.

You need to do more elevation drawings for every Top view drawings and you will see that it won't work.

There's more that your not including on your drawings that your designs won't work.

Later


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PostPosted: Jul 23rd, '16, 17:03 
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nope this is showing one rack of 12 and 20000 sqm is the Land that the uncle of my wife gave us.

the Greenhouse is in total 57.6m x 32 (each span 9.6m) two racks are fitting in each span. Side wall is 5m and the roof peak is 5,9m. (see attached quotation)

the 2 hrs is a typing error sorry about that. First i was looking a 12 hrs but I might be a bit short about this, the water exchange shall be twice a day.

Elavation drawings will follow as soon the time is given.
by now there are only lines that describe pipes but no dimensions so all is a bit mixed.
We have all lines in Europe nice arranged in Gulleys and not all over the place, don't worry this will change as well to here.

In End of November a Colleague from Taiwan will come for visit with an AP engineer and bring the ideas into a proper plan, that's why i am posting here first.

Attachment:
quotation pg 1.GIF
quotation pg 1.GIF [ 37.01 KiB | Viewed 5689 times ]

Attachment:
pg 2.GIF
pg 2.GIF [ 33.43 KiB | Viewed 5689 times ]


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PostPosted: Jul 30th, '16, 11:52 
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See Will wrote:
almost,,

5040 Kg if 30cm filled. plus we gave our calcs an extra 504x2 Kg for the heaviest possible plant, so you are almost right when we are at 6 tons.


But the 5040 kg is just for 1 trough with 5040 liters of water. There are 7 troughs in the design so that's 35,280 kg + the plant load of 1,004 kg = 36,284 kg per section = 36.3 tonnes.

But there is more weight per section when you add in the weights for the plywood, lumber, H beams, and Sq tubing. This will probably go over 40+ tonnes per section.


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PostPosted: Jul 30th, '16, 12:17 
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See Will wrote:
A solid steelframe will do it. In the scratch it looks like 2 stands but in total are 8 in there, 140mm H Bars, plus a square from 120mm/120m box steel.

The foundation will end up with 1102 Kg on each one cbm Block and to keep all in position another ring has to be made.. concrete and galv Steel is quite cheap in Thailand, the footplates spread the force it to 0.122 kg per square centimeter.


" looks like 2 stands but in total are 8"

And each of the 8 "A" steel sections have 4 columns for a total of 32 baseplates.

So if you use the 40 tonnes I've calculated / 0.122 kg/p/sq/cm = each baseplate would be 101.2 x 101.2 sq/cm's

Explain the above " one [url]cbm Block[/url]"

" and to keep all in position [url]another ring[/url]has to be made."


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PostPosted: Aug 1st, '16, 00:36 
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Hi all,

the first round went into the bin, in all forums i have got more bad infos as good ones so vertical is not the solution.

It would cost in a first overview 10-12 times more as going horizontal.
Most levels can be archived by moving dirt instead of building huge frames and Troughs.
Cheers all for the help till now..
So Plan B:
Attachment:
Capture 1.GIF
Capture 1.GIF [ 9.38 KiB | Viewed 5624 times ]

Attachment:
Capture2.GIF
Capture2.GIF [ 5.64 KiB | Viewed 5624 times ]

Attachment:
Untitled1.png
Untitled1.png [ 154.48 KiB | Viewed 5624 times ]


as first Idea, the entire tank system will be placed outside, the greenhouse lowered for less cooling volume and here we go.
the Throughs are now equal amount water and I could even add some crayfish bassins, beside the Styrodur plates don't need any cuttings as I can build the size to the plates.

in theory, what you think?

Cheers

Will


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PostPosted: Aug 1st, '16, 08:17 
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this is getting closer to a more conventional style setup. Fish operations outside greenhouse is good idea IMO.
using dirt makes sense - for pads and as excavations. And no frames +1

It seems to me that the GIF image sets are not giving the same message as the last PNG ?

I wonder that your fish side is too complex. I doubt that the uncles concrete fish tank operations are that complex.

That is where I would be looking for more simplification. Personally I don't like big all-in-one systems.
I would be looking for perhaps sets of a couple of tanks each with smaller filters and less connectivity.

IMO I would have a small header tank at the beginning of each channel - that would allow for dosing etc.
Reduces the plumbing risk as each channel has a supply.

"in all forums i have got more bad infos as good ones so vertical is not the solution."
Good to see that there is some consistency of opinion somewhere in Aquaponics......

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May the fish sh*t and the plants grow.....


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PostPosted: Aug 1st, '16, 17:13 
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Sure Darren,

I appreciate every opinion and in my first Ideas I am job related thinking too much in technical details.

This is just a drawing of collected info's like to switch every fishtank into an emergeny line if deseases breaking out or disconnect the fish if some feeding for the plants is necessary.

I'll try ti shrink the pics to get them back in JPG format.

The Cray Tanks are added to have as much water in the fish tanks as also used in the grow beds.. so the amount is almost equal.
My wife wrote me an e-mail that she wants outside the greenhouse another loop with trees (papaya e.g.) so if the nitrate level goes up, that this loop steps in and supports to get the balance faster, if necessary.. Brings for me a lot of more questions how she means this.
(She says Thais are more intelligent because they only need to go 6 years to school and not 13 like the germans LOL)

Cheers

Will


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PostPosted: Aug 2nd, '16, 07:50 
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See Will wrote:
Attachment:
Capture 1.GIF




So what I'm looking at is 2 end sections of the GH, 9.6 m's wide each section, 32 m's long, is that correct?

Before you had 35,280 liters of water in 9.6 m's x 16 m's, total of 117.6 sq/m's. is that correct?

In this new design you only have 21,840 liters of water in same amount of space, for a total of 72.8 sq/m's, is this correct?

Why are you willing to lose over =13,000 liters of water, -44.2 sq/m's, in the same amount of area?

But your goal was to have as much growing area per each section, Seems strange to me..


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PostPosted: Aug 2nd, '16, 07:55 
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See Will wrote:
Sure Darren,

I appreciate every opinion and in my first Ideas I am job related thinking too much in technical details.

This is just a drawing of collected info's like to switch every fishtank into an emergeny line if deseases breaking out or disconnect the fish if some feeding for the plants is necessary.

I'll try ti shrink the pics to get them back in JPG format.

The Cray Tanks are added to have as much water in the fish tanks as also used in the grow beds.. so the amount is almost equal.
My wife wrote me an e-mail that she wants outside the greenhouse another loop with trees (papaya e.g.) so if the nitrate level goes up, that this loop steps in and supports to get the balance faster, if necessary.. Brings for me a lot of more questions how she means this.
(She says Thais are more intelligent because they only need to go 6 years to school and not 13 like the germans LOL)

Cheers

Will


Why do I get the impression, that whatever design you go with, it has to fit inside the demensions of the GH you've given.

So what that shows me is you bought the GH before you had a growing design, if so you just put the "Cart before the Horse"

Bad design selection.

Sorry


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PostPosted: Aug 2nd, '16, 14:55 
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First of all we should forget any former design of my vertical Ideas. They are deleted and in the bin.

GH before growbed: not really ,
I have got some designs from a good mate in China and what they offer. the GH can always be widen but the length has to be rough 32m to match into the spot in focus direction the sun travels e-w direction.

The Greenhouse will be built to what we achieve: Just as rough indication.
My basic thoughts are now:

2x8 = 16 GB x 1300mm x 14000mm x 400 high (300mm water) = 87360ltr water
8 crayfish bassins 6000mm x 2000mm x 500mm water = each 6000 ltr = 48000 ltr water in total
8 fish tanks 6000 ltr = 48000 ltr They might have 5000 ltr as they wouldnt be full to the rim. = 40000 ltr in total.
And the entire fish stuff will be ending in an external shed proper fit around the setup and not anymore in the Greenhouse.
I will loose the cooling accu effect of the fishtanks but the greenhouse will be much lower and so better to cool down with cooling pads.

The GH is available for 14800mm or 15300mm width as multispan x 32000mm so all fits.

sorry for not beeing that clear in my description but the job project here on the ship is now coming to a bit more pressure and takes more time. 84 days to go and then I can concentrate fully on my farm project.

Attachment:
GH new design.JPG
GH new design.JPG [ 41.68 KiB | Viewed 5562 times ]



Will


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '16, 07:18 
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See Will wrote:
First of all we should forget any former design of my vertical Ideas. They are deleted and in the bin.

GH before growbed: not really ,
I have got some designs from a good mate in China and what they offer. the GH can always be widen but the length has to be rough 32m to match into the spot in focus direction the sun travels e-w direction.

The Greenhouse will be built to what we achieve: Just as rough indication.
My basic thoughts are now:


Actually that first design is what a lot of other commercial AP GH operators are going for. Growing above the FT's and Filters. But what was wrong with the first design was that you had too many support columns for the growing area.

Look at other technologies such as how new parking garages are built, they hold up more weight than what you were designing and the supports are on both ends, no need for all those interior supports. Another example is how they build overhead road systems.

On your first design of going with 1.2 m wide DWC tanks, was a waste of growing space except for your tall growing vining crops and these trough can be cut to 1 m wide. But for the regular plants of less than 2-3' tall then 1-2 wide open troughs per section, giving the max percentage of growing space.

Look into it, you were on the right track, the first time.

Old Prospector.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '16, 08:15 
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Strength to a Double Tee, 10-ft-wide, 60-ft-long precast, prestressed concrete double tee


http://precast.org/2014/10/strength-double-tee/


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PostPosted: Aug 6th, '16, 17:21 
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Ok so far understood, so vertical seems the right way, even I feel unconfortable without overdimensional safety factor and old style steelworks ;-))

Bridges and Parking lots,, I think I am looking too much in greenery and farm and never would have takes such statics into cosideration.

Vines have been a small part of my thought until now.

We have had here in this forums some very good impacts and yes, even the 1800sqm Greenhouse shall be a test farm, then it is more importatn to have a full variability of planting systems.
at the walls there could be some grow beds for vines and e.g high growing tomato plants, in the center the steps of the vertical.
..and coming back on your words coach and hose, I am now aware that I shall be making my design and the put a suitable greenhouse around.
.. I am more than happy to go back to my old ideas focussing on vertical and having my fish tanks underneath..

so your example with high growin plants 1m,, they would just fit brilliant at the walls of our Greenhouse, and now I'll see what i can do to get my fish and "salads" back "home"
I am a bit confused about "wide throughs" what would you consider as "wide"? (Thais are relatively small and so they range is far below of that of my arm length.
BUT, the scaffold ladder I made in my test field would be working much better when I have wider througs because I could widen the platforms for working space. But the ladder is another story.

I have seen in the www. so much grow throghs in all sizes and planned by now matching the sizes of Styrodur plates off the shelf without cutting them.. so 1.2 meter was a plate wide. I could run 2 Styrodur plates parallel that would make a through 2.4 meters wide (plus a 10cm extra for smooth floating.)
Any suggestion?

I have about 6 weather days coming up and it will be so rough that the Vessel has to go into port.. Some Pictrues will follow quick..
But first I have to hammer some goosebumps down when I think about wider growing througs and the added weight on less frameworks, LOL.

Cheers mate, that will make my day.


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PostPosted: Aug 6th, '16, 20:44 
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just as remark to above, the only thing with vertical farming what still is a thorn in my eye is that I want to use sunlight as my family in Europe does. The saying sungrown is a higher quality and more taste that you ever will archive with artifical light ressources. Also a plant needs rest at night after a stressful growing day.

http://www.treehugger.com/green-archite ... evels.html
and many other web pages are confirming that shelf systems and artifical light costs etc.
So the arrangements with stair shape will be mandatory in my plans.

I also got now, what you mentioned Old Prospector. I went to the supermarket and measured the sizes of all available plants. I really have to think about the spaces in height for e.g.leafy plants. If the througs are just 20 cm horizontal apart
every plant would have enough space also to the side. So they do not need 40cm gaps in the vertical height.
planting in the front and harvest in the back and the flow does the movement job, so i could actually safe some walkways as well on the steps.


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PostPosted: Aug 6th, '16, 23:01 
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See Will wrote:
just as remark to above, the only thing with vertical farming what still is a thorn in my eye is that I want to use sunlight as my family in Europe does. The saying sungrown is a higher quality and more taste that you ever will archive with artifical light ressources. Also a plant needs rest at night after a stressful growing day.

http://www.treehugger.com/green-archite ... evels.html
and many other web pages are confirming that shelf systems and artifical light costs etc.
So the arrangements with stair shape will be mandatory in my plans.

I also got now, what you mentioned Old Prospector. I went to the supermarket and measured the sizes of all available plants. I really have to think about the spaces in height for e.g.leafy plants. If the througs are just 20 cm horizontal apart
every plant would have enough space also to the side. So they do not need 40cm gaps in the vertical height.
planting in the front and harvest in the back and the flow does the movement job, so i could actually safe some walkways as well on the steps.


Will

Stop the rambling. You are pushing instead of pulling the cart with your horse.

First you need to decide a few facts of your project.

1. You've given 3 different sizes for a GH. 1842 s/m, 1894 s/m and 1958 s/m. What size are you going to buy?

2. You started this Topic using measurements in centimeters, then switched to meters, then to millimeter's, and just now you went back to cm's. You need to make up your mind as to what will you use going forward. As I've said before I'm mostly illiterate when it comes to the Metric system, so I have to rely on a online conversion calculator to see what it is in USA measures. If I was to describe how long a football field was to someone and started the converstion with Feet, then switched to Yards, then switched to Inches, it would get quite confusing to that person.

3. If I ask you a question, its because I'm trying to figure what you are talking about. If you don't want to answer the question say so and I'll stop following this Topic, and giving you my 2 cents worth.

Old Prospector


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