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PostPosted: Aug 20th, '12, 20:14 
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Yep. If i look in my tank i hear them head butting the side of the IBC. Stupid things...

They might also be a little stressed from the new filter?

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 04:25 
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Given the big ones are dying this points to your aeration vs water temp.

What is water temp? If it is hovering above 19 you will need to aerate constantly.

Water's ability to hold oxygen drops with rising water temps, which is part of the reason trout don't like high temps given their high oxygen demands.


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 07:46 
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I thought as much.

The aerator is going flat out, looks tile a tub full of aero bars..

Four more deaths last night... Hmm.

Is it because they were a little bigger in size, (10-20cm) and I have stressed them too much with all the environment and water changes etc.???

The little ones are going great guns. They have a hell of a lot of kick about them.

Should i test the water, or will this just cause them more grief if i try and correct it?


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 07:51 
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They don't seem to be eating from the top of the surface either, they tend to wait till it sinks and then they hook in. This is why I am having to clean the uneaten pellets out every feed. I am using 4mm and 6mm pellets, the 6 mm seem to float alot longer.

Considering the size of the fish, I don't think it would be a good idea to go to 8mm pellets, just to keep them floating longer..

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 08:29 
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Trout can take a little while to settle in to their new surrounds; they will eventually get used to the location and the new feeding regime. Any additional stress now though is not going to be good for them, so don't do anything which might cause them more harm, including peering into the tank every ten minutes! I probably wouldn't even feed them for a few days and leave them alone as much as possible, checking once in the morning and once in the evening for any floaters. If you've got plenty of air and stable water conditions (fully cycled) then there's not much else to do except admire the setup from a distance.

If you're only just starting the cycling of your system, this is another kettle of fish! Let us know about this. What's your pumping regime? Do you own a test kit?

I notice in your photos you scooped the fish out of the transport water? When it comes to moving the fish, many advocate floating the entire transport container in the FT to allow the temperatures slowly reach equilibrium, whilst slowly adding a cup or two of the FT to the transport water over time, to equalise the pH of the transport water and the FT. After a few hours or when you're ready, slowly tip the entire transport container into the FT and the fish wont receive any temperature or pH shock. Careful handling at the very beginning can pay dividends later.

Regarding the food: What is the 4/6mm feed? Skrettings Spectra SS? (Where did you get it?) If your feed is SS then the 6mm contains beta-carotene which will give the fish flesh a nice colour when it comes to harvest time (allegedly, I have asked Skretting many times for their technical data sheets and am still waiting :( ) whereas in the floating feed (Spectra FF) beta-carotene is only added to the 7mm pellets. You don't need to go to bigger pellets, you could in fact grow trout on 3mm for all their lives if you wanted to; sometimes bigger feed can cause troubles if it gets lodged in the fish' digestive tract. I'd be sticking with your current feed; the fish have been subject to enough changes for the moment, although I might be thinking about the Spectra SF later in the season? If you keep getting uneaten food, then simply feed less the next time you feed them.

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 08:32 
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Id salt to 2ppt as well. 2kg per 1000L of water.

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 08:47 
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Charlie wrote:
Id salt to 2ppt as well. 2kg per 1000L of water.

Swimming pool salt

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 09:04 
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Hey guys, thanks for all the advice.

I have put in some salt, but not enough by the sounds of things.

The system is all new. Only just cycling.

IT is a flood and drain system and is on FT.

Do you think I need to consider putting it on a timer for 20 minutes per hour instead?

I think I just need to sit back relax have a few froffy's and let it do it's thing...

The wife and I just want this to work, so i think we could be being too pedantic.

I have put some worm juice in on the first day, should I consider using seasol instead?

The seedlings have taken like fish to water, Parden the pun, They have grown about 30mm alreay in 3 days, I am happy with that. Is the growth rate effecting the fish?

Don't forget I am still new to this, so I m asking a thousand questions as I go.. Cheers all.


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 10:11 
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Cycling with fish can be problematic when just starting out; but it can be done successfully, but you have to be careful and proceed slowly.

In AP systems, we grow three things; fish, plants and bacteria. The most important of these is the bacteria because without them, the other two things die! At this time of year with the temperatures we are currently experiencing, it will take up to 8 weeks for bacteria to colonise the new system. During this time, you will experience a build up of ammonia (which is toxic to fish) followed by a build up of nitrites (which is also toxic to fish) finally followed by the desired build of nitrates as the ammonia and nitrites fall to almost zero levels.

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If the ammonia starts getting "too high" (measured against pH and temperature) then stop feeding the fish for up to a week (stop adding the products which are converted to ammonia) and also you may need to do partial water changes so make sure you have a supply of spare, off-gassed water available if needed. If the nitrites start getting "too high" then salting up to 3ppt will help the fish against nitrite poisoning (brown blood disease).

As the bacteria will be "living" in the GB media, I'd be giving them as much oxygenated water and sustenance as possible i.e. continuous pumping, so long as you don't have a massive pump which is forcing huge volumes of water as high pressure and speed through the media. If your pump is "too large" then simply add a T-piece and divert some of the excess straight back into the FT where it will aid aeration. Water should be moving sedately through the media, not a rushing torrent which blasts the bacteria from the surface of the media; aim to have all of the system pass through the media about once per hour.

The nitrification process will generally acidify water, so prepare for a sudden drop in pH by adding a buffer material to the system; shell grits or calcium carbonate (pure limestone) work well in this regard. If the water becomes acidic, the buffer dissolves raising the pH, but if the pH is already high the buffer wont dissolve and will remain in the system. Personally, I like to use shell grit (available from the chook food section of a pet store).

Although it is not absolutely necessary, I recommend getting a water test kit to monitor on a daily basis your progress through the cycling process; once it's complete you can cut right back on the water monitoring to weekly or less. By monitoring your water like this, you'll also get a good appreciation of what is actually going on in your system; experience which may be invaluable later.

If you ever need to make any changes in your system, then you must make these changes slowly so as not to cause a bacteria crash or shock the fish; both can be catastrophic to the success of your system.

Remember: Less is more; the less you do to the system, the more successful it's going to be.



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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:29 
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First Water Test

PH - 7

PH Hi Range - 7.4

NH3/NH4 - 0.5

NO2- - 0

NO3- - 5

Looks like I need some shell grit to reduce the Ammonia. Would I be correct in starting there???


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:36 
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shell grit is for ph

just run the pump full time, hold back on the feed and salt if you haven't already

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:45 
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pump is on consitantly, not timed.

So no feed and more salt??

Off I go to petstock.. Non caking agent salt. Is pool salt fine?


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:46 
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Shell grit does nothing to ammonia, only pH (and trace elements in the water, such as calcium which will be used later by the plants).

pH 7.4 is fine. Adding shell grits will act as a buffer (insurance) in the event the nitrification process acidifies the water and the pH suddenly drops. If it doesn't happen, they will just sit there and do almost nothing.

Ammonia is OK for now, although the level at which ammonia becomes toxic (measured through Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN)) is dependent on pH and temperature, so you really should get a reliable thermometer too.

As shown in the graph posted previously, you would not be expecting to see any nitrites just yet, but it will come. Expect the ammonia to spike then as it falls, the first beneficial bacteria will start to kick in converting the toxic ammonia to toxic nitrites. You can be prepared in advance for this by maintaining about 1ppt salt, however maintaining up to 3ppt salt will also help the immune systems of previously stressed fish and can be added now. (Pool salt, not cooking or table salt!)

The nitrates are probably legacy of some worm wee or seasol added earlier?

I'd still avoid feeding the fish for the first few days after resettlement, and then start a feeding regime by adding very small quantities of feed a few times per day, increasing the frequency and/or quantity slowly as the fish settle in and as the cycling process starts. Bigger fish eat less (by relative weight) and less often than smaller fish, so keep this in mind if you're reading what others have done when cycling their systems with fingerlings/yearlings. If there is any uneaten food 30 minutes after feeding, scoop it out and feed less next time.

Keep pumping and keep aerating. If you stop pumping, toxins will accumulate in the FT during the pump-off phase and they may not be completely cleared during the pump-on phase, so just keep pumping for now.

As the Nepalese say, "Pistari. Pistari." (Slowly, Slowly) You've just started a long journey...


Scott

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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:49 
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Did i say that the water temp is currently 13.6 Degrees. Has been ranging from 11-14. Depending on the time of day,

Slightly cloudy looking as well...


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PostPosted: Aug 21st, '12, 11:53 
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Cheers for that Scott,

It seems we aren't doing too much different to what you reccomend.

I think we are just being overzelous parents... HAHAAhah

Will get some salt in ASAP as I have lost a few more today and I dont want to loose n e more.

You guys rock.


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