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PostPosted: Dec 22nd, '17, 09:42 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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boss wrote:
A friend of a friend playing the ukulele as you say like a rock star!




Interesting the way it floats to the surface every now and again as if it influences the rest of the band. I guess that's a sign of someone who knows what they are doing when they are playing an instrument.

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PostPosted: Dec 27th, '17, 19:44 
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Hey there BW,
Here is a problem which you might be worthy of your consideration for a while.
As you know, Melbourne can get pretty dismal (by Aussie standards at least) in winter and fish killing hot in summer.
I want to build a greenhouse for next winter as most of my SP's pretty much shut down for a while last winter and I want to use some of summers excess heat for winter and winter cool for summer. So, I'm toying with solar pumped Geothermal storage. I was thinking of putting a series of vertical bores at 1m x1m spacings by 3 or 4m deep, and lining each hole with an outer 100 or 150mm PVC pipe and an inner, thinner plastic (HDPE?) pipe to take heat from the greenhouse to the bottom of the holes for storage.
Questions:
1. Do I put end caps on the bottom of the PVC pipes and maybe fill the space between the pipes with crushed rock. If the water table rises above the base of the pipe it may tend to try to float out. (water table was at about 1m 40 years ago, bt is currently below 6m). Do I l;eave the bases open?
2. Should I pump water as the transfer fluid from GH to earth or air? Obviously air is easier to pump, but water carries much more energy.

The holes have to be vertical because of lack of access, easier for me to dig with a hand auger and to get heat down deep enough to store effectively.
The GH will be 6m x 4m area (by 3m high-domed) so 20 holes by 3-4m depth should be enough length of pipe for sufficient transfer. Everything (pump wise) has to be solar powered.
3. There are lots of tree roots and some municipal pipes/easements in the area I'm planning to use, so excavation is again out of the question.
I want to use a 4500L FT within the GH to partially act as a heat sink.


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PostPosted: Dec 30th, '17, 00:08 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Nhibbo wrote:
Hey there BW,
Here is a problem which you might be worthy of your consideration for a while.
As you know, Melbourne can get pretty dismal (by Aussie standards at least) in winter and fish killing hot in summer.
I want to build a greenhouse for next winter as most of my SP's pretty much shut down for a while last winter and I want to use some of summers excess heat for winter and winter cool for summer. So, I'm toying with solar pumped Geothermal storage. I was thinking of putting a series of vertical bores at 1m x1m spacings by 3 or 4m deep, and lining each hole with an outer 100 or 150mm PVC pipe and an inner, thinner plastic (HDPE?) pipe to take heat from the greenhouse to the bottom of the holes for storage.
Questions:
1. Do I put end caps on the bottom of the PVC pipes and maybe fill the space between the pipes with crushed rock. If the water table rises above the base of the pipe it may tend to try to float out. (water table was at about 1m 40 years ago, bt is currently below 6m). Do I l;eave the bases open?
2. Should I pump water as the transfer fluid from GH to earth or air? Obviously air is easier to pump, but water carries much more energy.

The holes have to be vertical because of lack of access, easier for me to dig with a hand auger and to get heat down deep enough to store effectively.
The GH will be 6m x 4m area (by 3m high-domed) so 20 holes by 3-4m depth should be enough length of pipe for sufficient transfer. Everything (pump wise) has to be solar powered.
3. There are lots of tree roots and some municipal pipes/easements in the area I'm planning to use, so excavation is again out of the question.
I want to use a 4500L FT within the GH to partially act as a heat sink.



[EDIT - The following confuses the desire for warmth and "coolth" randomly and interchangeable due to Christmas spirit.]

I'll follow this up later when I gain a better grasp of the question, but in the interest of letting by brain splurge a bit, I'll let the following ramble remain.

Sometimes I delete them after I write them, sometimes I leave them.



Getting heat in winter is pretty easy with a grow house if everything is contained (ie fish tanks and grow beds) but cooling in summer is tricky. If you are going to sink stuff underground to get heat transfer to cool your water, I'd avoid rocks in the form of gravel in the holes as they form more of an insulating air pocket. I'd dig a hole as deep as I could, plumb it with your water pipes, and then surround it with Kaolin (clay that can be bought in 25kg bags in powdered form) as a heat conductor. You'd need to keep it moist, but it wouldn't take a lot of water. A dripper would do it in a post hole hole. The conductivity between your water running through the pipes and the surrounding soil would be the most important aspect I think.

One thing I discovered in my solar hot water experiment on my blog is that a single length of black poly pipe running through a solar collector (foam box that broccoli is delivered to supermarkets in, but with a glass lid) pulled the same amount of heat from the box as a complex loop of tubes or corflute or whatever. The reality is that plenty of cool water pumped through a single 12mm poly pipe tube running once through hot box quickly pulls all the heat from it. I'm guessing the same would be the case when trying to dissipate heat into the ground.

Another trick you might employ is using a thermosyphon to shift water to the top of a container, then feed that into your hot water service. That might mean you could use the new cool water entering your cooling system from your mains tap water supply to cool your system. I can elaborate more on that if none of that means anything :)

The result to my mind would be you would be better off with dumping heat into an area outside your hothouse (perhaps under a shady tree) into multiply post holes lined with clay kept slightly damp (just for heat conductivity and good contact with the hose) and not bothering with coils of hose or whatever.

I'd start with one, and add more as required.

I think you'll be amazed at what one heat sink does does, but that's just a guess based on my heat collection experiments I did.

Easy to test with a "before" and "after" thermometer when just pumping a bucket of water through a pipe within a pit.

If you can run the pipe to your household water supply through the same hole next to the pipe in your post hole, I'm guessing that might add a bit of extra heatsinking "coolth" to the equation or warmth depending on season.

I cant remember if you want "Coolth"

That last line is probably the takeaway idea from this. (no the one before that)

In fact, I think that a pretty good idea. :)

Just do that. My water comes out of the tap at X degrees C lower (I never claimed I had a memory, but I'm pretty sure it was exactly X) than the hottest days through summer from memory, and a similar difference in winter. It's pretty stable being pushed through the ultimita public works heat sink.

And we all use a stack of water. If your cold tap is a few degrees hotter, it wont matter, and if your water entering your hot water service is preheated by a few degrees, that can only be a good thing. You could probably just run the feed into your ...... (writing too fast) I cant remember where this was going due to a sudden need to edit the first paragraph, but rest assured I'll get back to it.

That's all I can think of tonight.

I'll read it through again in the new year and have another think after I come back from a holidays.

But I think the use of your mains water supply to regulate temperature by running your house supply close to you system water circulating through silica gel might be a thing :)

Really???

Who knows.

Things for me to think about when I re-read this...

*maybe pack the hole around the heat sink with silica gel
*check silica gel phase change tech stuff - it might be insanely interesting
*I think I wouldn't bother with sinking PVC pipes due to them being insulators (especially with gravel)
*PVC pipes would probably NOT float out of a clay (kaolin) lined pit due to insane suction (If it's slightly damp)
*mains water supply is the ultimate heat sunk stuff maybe (I hope this is true because if it is I've discovered something)???????????????????
*search...
phase change
thermo syphon
average ground temperatures (creates average mains water temperatures??)
silica gel specs and behaviour

*other stuff rapidly falling out of my head as I type that will probably come back to me later


and slee*click*eep

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Last edited by BullwinkleII on Dec 30th, '17, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry about the yellow text


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PostPosted: Dec 30th, '17, 00:20 
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I dont think your going to be able to store any heat or "coolth*" (yeah that's a thing now :) ) over any length of time.. ie days or weeks or whatever... maybe hours.



*just in case anyone doesn't understand this... there's no such thing as "coolth" as I keep referring to. Coolness doesnt exist as a thing (not even in the fashion world). There is only lack of heat. Eventually when we remove all the heat we have what we call zero degrees Kelvin or Absolute zero. This is −273.15° C or −459.67°F. After that there is no more heat to remove no matter what.

Things pretty much stop doing stuff at that point. Read more here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

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PostPosted: Dec 30th, '17, 02:55 
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Hey Bullwinkle,
I have read through this previous thread, and through your blog/website. You are one of my main sources of inspiration, not just because of the work you've done with aquaponics, but because of your creative and outside the box thinking, and your willingness to consider "foolish" ideas.

I was saddened to read your comments about nothing mattering anymore. I really hope you can find something that matters, to focus on. Your work is a monument, and has helped improve the lives of countless people. Thank you again for sharing your genius with all of us.

Best regards!


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PostPosted: Dec 30th, '17, 18:30 
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underdog5004 wrote:
Hey Bullwinkle,
I have read through this previous thread, and through your blog/website. You are one of my main sources of inspiration, not just because of the work you've done with aquaponics, but because of your creative and outside the box thinking, and your willingness to consider "foolish" ideas.

I was saddened to read your comments about nothing mattering anymore. I really hope you can find something that matters, to focus on. Your work is a monument, and has helped improve the lives of countless people. Thank you again for sharing your genius with all of us.

Best regards!



Really, I said that stuff about nothing mattering? !!

I'm over whatever caused that :)

Thanks for your thoughts.

It always freaks me out when I discover people actually read this stuff.


But more importantly, if you have a favorite small pair of long nose pliers you like to keep handy on your desk, triple wrap a rubber band made of bike inner tube around it near the hinge, and you get a pair of auto closing, gentle, vice grip type things.


Totally useful!

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PostPosted: Dec 30th, '17, 18:41 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
It's been so long since I contributed anything to this forum.

Is there any new question that needs answering?

I feel I'm a little out of the loop.

Not because I dont care about aquaponics, but just because I no longer care about anything.

But I can change that if there is some kind of pressing problem.

All I need is a pressing problem.

It doesnt even need to be aquaponics related.

I just dont have any problems to solve, and haven't had any for months.

This month only - Will solve industrial or invention/profitable problems for no money (although I still want to be named on any patents)

Private me with non-disclosure contracts, and details

Ahggghhh!

I hate 4:23 am


oh yeah.... I did say that about nothing mattering

I was just looking for distraction

that was just due to sleep deprivation and a kidney stone

This too shall pass :pottytrain5:

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PostPosted: Dec 31st, '17, 14:02 
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Nhibbo wrote:
Hey there BW,
Here is a problem which you might be worthy of your consideration for a while.
As you know, Melbourne can get pretty dismal (by Aussie standards at least) in winter and fish killing hot in summer.
.


Other options
1 move interstate. :D
2 move interstate

would you be allowed // is it legal to drill holes that size in your residential back yard...??

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PostPosted: Dec 31st, '17, 15:36 
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I found with enough water (200L or so) the system was pretty stable day to night in summer.

In winter the glasshouse did the trick.

I doubt I could keep trout, but my silvers were more active in winter in the glasshouse.

Also I found I could turn them onto their feed by throwing in a few worms. That seemed to make them eat more of other stuff as well.

Also adding a powerhead might wake them up a little in winter. It's only 5 watts or so and will keel a large tank[e]'s water moving quite quickly. You can always drop in some bricks for them to take cover behind, but mine were always out n the fastest flowing water.

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Last edited by BullwinkleII on Apr 23rd, '18, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
there's no "e" in tank's.


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PostPosted: Dec 31st, '17, 15:43 
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mabe 10 watts or more.... but not a huge amount

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PostPosted: Jan 3rd, '18, 17:02 
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Thanks BW. Glad to get your thoughts on the matter.

To quote you, "I was just looking for distraction" and thought this idea might keep your mind ticking over for a few days (or nights as may be).

I like your idea of a thermosyphon and it's one I've thought about in the past too. "Coolth" is definitely a nice term and exactly what I was after to cope with excess summer heat. The greenhouse is more than adequate for winter, especially with the solar heater that I built for last winter added in to the FT. But summer.....Coolth is the go.

Your broccoli box and polypipe is a good idea and I will make 1 trial deep well and circulate water through it via the broccoli box just to get an idea of the storageability/temperature difference over time.

Tonzz, LOL and great suggestions for 1. and 2. above, but life dictates staying in Melbourne until the end of time. Illegal to dig holes in your backyard??? Didn't you watch "The Castle"?

So, BW, yeah, I think ultimately the use of water filled olive barrels below the grow beds will be the go (or maybe a group plumbed together below an insulated floor will do the trick, perhaps with the option of thermosyphon for summer) and a larger FT as planned. If the vertical deep hole idea works, I can add more later. As you pointed out, the time lag between heat collection and release will be the deciding factor.

Having had the occasional kidney stone, I know what you're going through, but yeah, they will pass.....just keep up lots of water. (A friend swears by coke as a way to ease kidney stones...he now has diabetes...I guess what you make on the straights, you lose on the roundabouts).


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PostPosted: Jan 3rd, '18, 17:12 
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Oh yeah, I have put in a small power head this spring (a small 12 volt solar pump which just keeps the water slowly circulating by day so I will be keen to see what difference it makes to their feeding in the system out in the open next winter).
I fed worms, slaters, grubs and duckweed throughout last winter too. Strangely, my SP's seem to really like Italian parsley.
(If I could get them to eat a few more herbs I might be able to pre-season them LOL).


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PostPosted: Jan 5th, '18, 20:48 
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Nhibbo wrote:
Thanks BW. Glad to get your thoughts on the matter.

To quote you, "I was just looking for distraction" and thought this idea might keep your mind ticking over for a few days (or nights as may be).

I like your idea of a thermosyphon and it's one I've thought about in the past too. "Coolth" is definitely a nice term and exactly what I was after to cope with excess summer heat. The greenhouse is more than adequate for winter, especially with the solar heater that I built for last winter added in to the FT. But summer.....Coolth is the go.

Your broccoli box and polypipe is a good idea and I will make 1 trial deep well and circulate water through it via the broccoli box just to get an idea of the storageability/temperature difference over time.

Tonzz, LOL and great suggestions for 1. and 2. above, but life dictates staying in Melbourne until the end of time. Illegal to dig holes in your backyard??? Didn't you watch "The Castle"?

So, BW, yeah, I think ultimately the use of water filled olive barrels below the grow beds will be the go (or maybe a group plumbed together below an insulated floor will do the trick, perhaps with the option of thermosyphon for summer) and a larger FT as planned. If the vertical deep hole idea works, I can add more later. As you pointed out, the time lag between heat collection and release will be the deciding factor.

Having had the occasional kidney stone, I know what you're going through, but yeah, they will pass.....just keep up lots of water. (A friend swears by coke as a way to ease kidney stones...he now has diabetes...I guess what you make on the straights, you lose on the roundabouts).


Unless by coke he means cocaine, I've heard the exact opposite. Something to do with potassium or something.

Either way, the enormous barrage of doctors being thrown at me by Australia's excellent health system tell me they have no idea what causes them, so for the time being I'll just keep having the stones until something better comes along :)

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PostPosted: Jan 5th, '18, 20:58 
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I'm back from my holiday to Port Elliot (South Australia) and still cant think straight, and also Mrs Bullwinkle Picked up some more web work in the way she does by chatting to people who own shops. The result is, If I forget to give this some more thought, just yell at me or something as I'm going to be a little busy for a bit.

I still think there is something in running your house water through your heat transfer system, so I'll try to do some tests. A city's mains water supply is the ultimate heat sink me thinks.

But like I said... cant think.

holiday spirits

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PostPosted: Jan 5th, '18, 21:22 
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Stones, coke and broccoli barrels. I like where this is going. The only one I'm unfamiliar with is the broccoli barrels. I better go back to see what I missed. Happy new year to you and yours!

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