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PostPosted: Apr 23rd, '08, 22:29 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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*Hey moderators or Admin, can this become the main sticky thread and have the following threads merged into it?*

From useful information section,
Quarantine methods

From this section,
System contamination/clean up
Food fish and recirculating system treatments

We all know that quarantine and good fish keeping are the best ways to cope with diseases.
Lets hear about people's methods of quarantine.

Then what happens, what should one do if something bad does get to the fish?
What is salt good against?
What won't salt take care of?
Mention of treatments that may be common in Aquarium or Aquaculture but are not safe for AP.
If all goes very badly............How does one "clean" up a system to make it safe for future fish?

Share disease disasters and the outcomes.

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 Post subject: Re: Quarantine methods
PostPosted: Apr 23rd, '08, 23:07 
Certainly think an isolation/hospital tank has a worthwhile purpose TLC.... especially as we tend to salt and people have found it's effect on certain plants...

Also seems to be a prudent thing to do before introducing "new" fish to a system...

I'm certainly going to incorporate such a system into my new "large" system.... the benefit of a seperate system allows for radical disinfection methods if required in dire circumstances.


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 02:15 
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Short answer -> If you can get your bacteria colony re-established and healthy they will crowd out nasty unwanted bacteria. You can leave a system barren of fish (no hosts) and still feed the bacteria (ammonia) while the nasty starves and dies.

But it all depends on what the nasty is.
Correct ID of disease is the important thing to plan your reaction from.


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 02:15 
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I think M.green is easy to test for though as lots of people in aquaculture worldwide get caught out when they try export.


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 03:32 
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TC here are a few documents that list diseases and treatments.
May not apply to AP.
The last gives some info on biofilters.

http://www.aaq.com.au/Stuart_Rowland.htm

http://www.fao.org/fishery/culturedspec ... calcarifer

One from your backyard...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA100

Hope this helps everyone.


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 03:38 
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Guess I should of said this before my last post...

Maybe a mod can switch it.

Don,

Mississippi has more aquaculture (100,000 acres +/-) than most countries and I have never seen or heard of Malachite Green being used in the last twenty years. Most fish farmers in MS are reluctant to use approved chemicals and antibiotics.

Can't speak for the rest of the world.


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 05:04 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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It hit the fan in my system and i got over it [ i think around page 20 in my thread ]

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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 05:05 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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EllKayBee wrote:
I have and use 2 methods only:
1) isolation and salt
2) removal and disposal in rubbish bin

Why mess around with sick fish if there is a possibility of future contamination of the food source - my thoughts

Iam with you 100%

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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 05:53 
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alright, I've merged what I could at this stage (it's a more complicated process than it used to be) please let me know if there are any others that should be in here.

please note, it is all mixed up now, the posts go in chronological order, not in subject order.

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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '08, 06:32 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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:cheers: A big huge thank you to Jaymie for consolidation of the threads, thank you :!:

Here is a link to the part of Food&Fish's thread mentioned, resolution of issues comes about page 31 in the thread, I think problem started around page 21. This link should take one to the start of it.
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=663&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=305
More chemical issue than disease but definitely the kind of things we want to link into this thread
Thanks F&F

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PostPosted: May 6th, '08, 22:01 
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I still have some fish with white patches but none seem to be "acting sick" and none have died from it so far. I now have 45 channel catfish our of my original 47. One little one died in the first couple days from getting sucked against the pump intake screen and the other more resent death was a big one that was a jumper.

Anyway, there are several fish with white patches but only two I think with really extreme cases of whatever it is. I kinda fear trying to net them out though as the last time I did any netting, I think I made things far worse with the increased stress.

The system has remained salted and at some point I might do another increased concentration salt treatment to the tank where the catfish are but since the fish are all still surviving, I'm not sure what else to do.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '08, 01:48 
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the verdict is still out regarding disease/ virus ect in ap systems.

i suspect there may be beneficial bacteria in well established systems that would normally be removed in regular aquaculture and aquarium keeping. most do water changes to remove nitrates. when the beneficial bacteria enters the fish it acts as a natural antibiotic that prevents disease outbreak.

in a mature ap system there is a complex relationship of microscopic cells and organisms. each has its place in the web. in such a well tuned web it is difficult for introduced bacteria/ disease ect to over populate the water. the system is a huge digester of beneficial bacteria and organisms. the key here is DO as any dramatic change to it will set off a chain reaction crippling the stability of the system as a whole.

when chemicals are added to the system for sake of treating fish diseases, the chances are this also ruptures the web. the relationships are so advanced that even the slightest bit of chemical can have a big impact. so adding chemicals may have the reverse effect in ap as it lessens the stability of the sytem. it may in fact contribute to disease outbreak.

so far as quarantine goes its probably essential to do so for a new system as an introduced disease could cause havoc and spread through the whole system. i don't think its as big a problem in mature systems if husbandry skills are up to scratch, as the disease can be contained.

i also believe that some fish naturally have a resistance to stress and disease and if they combat a disease in life they will be hardier fish long term. the problem with most fish these days are they are heavily inbred and have lost most of the disease/ stress resistant genes through selection for growth rates in squeaky clean environments (aquaculture). when taken out of such controlled environments the less hardy ones don't stand a chance.

thats just some food for thought and purely speculative. i don't known any science but base most of this on close observation and intuition. i am just another cell trying to find its place in the system.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '08, 08:51 
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I am also setting up a hospital tank at the moment. I will use the Salt or Compost method.

Questions:
Is 4ppt enough? According to Amacafish it's the salt differential that kills the bad stuff - viewtopic.php?p=110382#p110382. So if I'm running 3ppt, I might need to go up to 6ppt. How do I know what to go up to?

What is the go with oxygen and salt? Rope said to give something a really quick (30 sec) salt bath in high salt with plenty of oxygen. Whay the O2? What is the interaction there?

Is it better to have a really high salt bath for a short amount of time or a quarantine for a longer period for at a lower salt level?

At what salt level does the bacteria die? More to the point, should we bother setting it up with a biofilter at all, or should we just rely on water changes?

Does increasing the water hardness help in any way?

Basically I'm looking for someone to do a "Hospital HowTo"


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PostPosted: May 7th, '08, 09:18 
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Hay gemmell,
In a way this and the thread salt for fish health, in useful info I was hoping would turn into such a how to. Actually, most of the threads I've been starting lately are either me running an experiment I'm sharing or me trying to get the important info into a thread worth stickying.

What I gather about salt is you can (if you wish) run your main system at 3 ppt without hurting most plants. 3-6 ppt would be fine long term for most fish.

It is the sudden change of the salt level that is supposed to help against parasites (like what causes ich or white spot.) Trick is, it only kills them when they are in the water, not in the fish so treatment of that can take a few weeks depending on temperature.

As for the difference between salt dip, salt bath, and just salting the tank. A high concentration of salt for a very short period of time where you dip the fish in the bucket and watch it the whole time while it is in there before putting it back into the tank. I'm not sure of the exact concentrations or times since they will vary depending on type of fish. A bath is a lower concentration than the dip but still lasts less than an hour and the fish should not be left unattended since they sometimes need to be rescued from the bath and returned to their tank if they start floating or loosing their balance. Then treating the tank will depend on the issue, the type of fish and the plants. I have the impression that if you have a bad case of ich, you may well wind up treating with higher salt levels than many plants like.

As to salt against bacteria. Well, it may be that salt might not take care of all bacterial infections.

I suppose this is why a quarantine tank is such a good idea. When you get new fish, you can keep them in quarantine for three weeks or more to see if any diseases appear. That way you can avoid introducing anything bad into the main system. If something really bad does show up in your fish in quarantine, you can dispose of those fish and sterilize the quarantine system before the next batch.

Should a quarantine system have a bio-filter? I think I would say yes. But it needs to be one that you could sterilize and re-start if need be. Perhaps the biofilter could be smaller than usual for such a system since feeding should probably be kept light during quarantine anyway. Remember that stress is the number one reason fish get sick. Many fish diseases are all around all the time and the fish usually only get sick when they are stressed. Some of the primary causes of fish stress include poor water quality and being handled or moved. Well, if you just put fish into your quarantine tank, you have already stressed them by moving them. You don't want the water quality in you quarantine tank to be questionable. Perhaps the bio-filter doesn't need to have plants in it since water changes to keep Nitrate down arn't such a big deal but ammonia and nitrite are so bad even at low concentrations that some sort of bio-filter seems like a good idea to me. The biggest problem I see with doing water changes to keep water quality good is that if treating with salt, the water then needs to be re-salted at the proper proportions and the water removed might not be too good for the garden if it is salted heavily.

There are a few plants that I've heard are ok with salty water; beets, New Zealand Spinach, and Purslane. There are many others I'm sure, but those are the ones I'm planning for my hospital tank right now.

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PostPosted: May 8th, '08, 20:15 
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So unanswered:

What is the interaction with O2 + salt?

Is increasing water hardness as good as or possibly better than just salting with NaCl?


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