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PostPosted: Sep 8th, '15, 15:04 
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I was reading some threads that made reference to Laterite and Zeolite and their ability to deal with Ammonia..
My new system ( more a RAS ) is designed to trap all solids, but it can't stop the excreted fish Ammonia..
So IF I have no use for the Ammonia, then why should I not try to get rid of it

Quote:
Anoxic Filtration – is it a bog filter?

Basket + Kitty litter + Laterite

Take a planting basket, fill it with cat litter, then scoop out a depression from the centre and fill that depression with about 400 grams of an aquarium plant fertiliser called laterite. Put a plant into the basket if you wish, but it isn’t necessary.

If it’s that simple to make a biocenosis basket, why are more koi keepers not using the anoxic filtration system?

http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html

Quote:
...... it’s only the ammonia molecules that are drawn into the baskets. Obviously, water floods into them when they are immersed, but after that, water doesn’t actually need to flow through them in order to filter out ammonia. The electrical charges in the centre of the basket only draw in ammonia molecules; they don’t draw in water molecules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laterite
So the Biocenosis process uses LATERITE to attract the Ammonia, through the clay layer and whilst within the Anoxic clay, the Ammonia is converted to nitrogen

Quote:
Zeolites have a porous structure that can accommodate a wide variety of cations, such as Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+ and others. These positive ions are rather loosely held and can readily be exchanged for others in a contact solution. Some of the more common mineral zeolites are analcime, chabazite, clinoptilolite, heulandite, natrolite, phillipsite, and stilbite. An example mineral formula is: Na2Al2Si3O10·2H2O, the formula for natrolite.

Zeolites are the alumino-silicate members of the family of micro-porous solids known as "molecular sieves." The term molecular sieve refers to a particular property of these materials, i.e., the ability to selectively sort molecules based primarily on a size exclusion process. This is due to a very regular pore structure of molecular dimensions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
The suggestion has been made that these Zeolite materials will both absorb and release the Ammonia etc. and so are not a great final solution, which would suggest to me that FRESH Zeolite WILL significantly suck in Ammonia, but when the concentration of the Ammonia in the parent water drops, then the Zeolite will release that ammonia - IF it has not already been Anoxically converted to N2..

So the thought arises, as to why the first "Basket" type device could not be made with a combination of pure Bentonite clay (cat litter) with a layer of Zeolite and a core of Laterite..
OR
An outer layer of Zeolite, then the Bentonite and then the core of Laterite

So now the biocenosis process can absorb and hold high concentrations (spikes) and then allow for slower anoxic processing..

biocenosis is said to occur in the LOW oxygen regions of the mass, and so I would assume that it will make no difference is the material is Bentonite or Zeolite (or Laterite), as they are all similar physical materials..

Anyone better trained in chemistry able to comment on what is NOT SAID..
..
.


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PostPosted: Sep 8th, '15, 15:16 
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You dont have a filter?

if you do, you will need to remove nitrates not ammonia.


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PostPosted: Sep 8th, '15, 16:46 
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Yavimaya wrote:
You dont have a filter?

if you do, you will need to remove nitrates not ammonia.


but AMMONIA proceeds NITRATES..

Of course there is a filter.. Twin-Swirl + DE-Filter + 300L of Clay Balls..

But IF I can (as I do) remove near 100% of solids AND I can ANOXICALLY remove Ammonia, then I don't have ANY NITRATES to worrie about.. :cheers:
..
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PostPosted: Sep 8th, '15, 18:48 
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Any studies on how long it takes to release the ammonia? Could you simply switch over between multiple filter and let the litter gas off before switching back? Interesting concept. It sounds to easy.lol


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PostPosted: Sep 8th, '15, 19:01 
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With Ammonia, particularly at high termp and pH, you have a very narrow window of safety for the fish, however IMO, if you remove solids and run a sufficiently sized high SSA filter for bacteria to live on, to produce nitrates, you have a hugely greater window of safety for the fish, and just need to either grow some plants or drain off a proportion each day or 3 to keep nitrate levels under control.

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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 05:34 
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The only big problem with zeolite that keeps getting repeated to me, is that when you salt a tank, the zeolite drops the ammonia for chloride. And then your fish are dead.


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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 12:40 
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sparhawk817 wrote:
The only big problem with zeolite that keeps getting repeated to me, is that when you salt a tank, the zeolite drops the ammonia for chloride. And then your fish are dead.

It is understood that the ZEOLITE will act a bit like a selective sponge and that under the right ?? conditions, the ammonia may be released, but surely the assumption is that given the right conditions, the bacteria will still be available and will be ever reducing the Ammonia concentrations..

@Chris... Check out the article on the basket construction and the other link within that article (top left) and you see that they recommend one basket per fish (KOI) which can be seriously big..
He suggests stacking each basket module, so that you get complete flow AROUND them, allowing the ammonia to be "Attracted" to the Laterite..
http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/building_an_anoxic_system.html
Again - the concept is that the core of LATERITE (supposedly) attracts the Ammonia ions and as it passes through the ANOXIC clay, it is converted to N2 gas..

So my silly thinking is that there should be a practical way of using BOTH the ZEOLITE and the LATERITE, and have the ZEOLITE act as a rapid sponge whilst the laterite will then suck the ammonia, more slowly through the anoxic clay..

again - if you can remove AMMONIA , you have NO NITRATES to even worrie about.. Just seems SOOOO logical..

I can't see why we cannot borrow tried and proven practice from the KOI people - IF it works.. and I have to assume that it does, as they too have test kits.. :thumbright:

Quote:
With Ammonia, particularly at high termp and pH, you have a very narrow window of safety for the fish, however IMO, if you remove solids and run a sufficiently sized high SSA filter for bacteria to live on, to produce nitrates,


@GG... Yes, understood, but that AMMONIA is there anyway, and IF the basket filtration works, then you have NO Ammonia - period..
So if the concept is added as an extra to a RAS (which is what the KOI people have) then it simply CAN'T HURT..

The concern would be that IF you do have a moving bed filter and you have no ammonia, then the bacteria will die, so perhaps you could FIRST run the flow through the MB Filter and then through the baskets, which will keep the bacteria happy AND remove even more of the ammonia, but at the cost of SOME final nitrates = far fewer water changes.
..
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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 12:57 
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sparhawk817 wrote:
The only big problem with zeolite that keeps getting repeated to me, is that when you salt a tank, the zeolite drops the ammonia for chloride. .

and that in itself raises an interesting concept..

eg.. How would it go to have a zeolite "Filter" in a bypass line , such that if an emergency event arose (like stirring up a bed = releasing ammonia) you could do a preventative filtration..

IF salt will flush it out - I would wonder if you could take the filter off-line and use salt to purge the zeolite of any ammonia, flush with fresh water to get rid of the salt and have the zeolite filter ready for another day..

How often have we read of folk panicking and doing multiple water changes to combat an ammonia spike.. :upset:

PS - does anyone know why LATERITE attracts Ammonia.. is it the iron??
..
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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 13:04 
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I imagine it "attracts" Ammonia in the same way that solar panels attract solar rays, ie not at all.
I'm sure it just reacts with any Ammonium ions that bump into it.

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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 13:24 
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BuiDoi wrote:
sparhawk817 wrote:
The only big problem with zeolite that keeps getting repeated to me, is that when you salt a tank, the zeolite drops the ammonia for chloride. And then your fish are dead.

It is understood that the ZEOLITE will act a bit like a selective sponge and that under the right ?? conditions, the ammonia may be released, but surely the assumption is that given the right conditions, the bacteria will still be available and will be ever reducing the Ammonia concentrations..

..
.



No, it doesnt work exactly like that.

imagine you are a tiny ant, how much can you eat?
now you are yourself, how much can you eat?
now you are on the fattest loser and eat a meal for 4 each meal, how much can you eat?

The amount of ammonia that is NORMALLY in the system, is the amount the bacteria can process, they need time to grow, etc before they can consume more food.

so if you have a sudden release of ammonia and hardly any bacteria because you normally take the ammonia out.... 100% guaranteed dead fish.


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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 13:41 
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Gunagulla wrote:
I imagine it "attracts" Ammonia in the same way that solar panels attract solar rays, ie not at all..


I can only assume that either you have not read the presentation on building the baskets, or the whole thing is pure BS, and the baskets have never worked..

Given the credentials of those presenting the concept, I do wonder how they have not been exposed a frauds by now, IF you are right.. :support:

Quote:
Acknowledgement:
Anoxic filtration has been developed over a period in excess of twenty five years by Dr. Kevin Novak PhD.


Interesting - google "ANOXIC FILTRATION" and you will find a deal of chatter on a subject that you say just cannot work.. other than accidentally, and the same as if NO laterite was used
https://www.google.com/search?q=anoxic+filtration&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Quote:
Anoxic filtration: In using the term “Anoxic Filtration,” I am referring to strategy promoted/developed by Kevin Novak. There seems to be a continued level of controversy surrounding this filtration system. I have read opinions from both adopters of this system as well as skeptics. Most impressive – at least in my opinion – of the claims made with regard to this system is that implementation of this filtration system can reportedly result in no detectable nitrate levels. It has been stated that this absence of nitrate is due (at least partly) to the filtration media (“biocenesis baskets”) acting directly upon ammonia. The removal of nitrate via bio-filtration would seem to complete the nitrogen cycle, and thus may allow for reduced water changes, which makes this strategy intriguing.
Although Kevin Novak does not reference this specific pathway, one plausible explanation that might account for the performance claims associated with this system is a pathway known as the “anammox reaction.” In a nutshell, the anammox reaction is a biochemical process where (ammonia + nitrite) or, alternatively (ammonia + nitrate) are used by bacteria in an energy-yielding pathway. While the reaction does not seem to be poisoned by oxygen, the presence of significant concentrations of oxygen would favor aerobic processes (which would yield much more energy for the bacteria), so the anammox reaction most commonly occurs in nature at deep water ocean depths where the oxygen concentration is low.

My experimental system will consist of 2-3 “biocenesis pots” (plant baskets containing kiln-fired clay-based kitty litter with laterite). These biocenesis pots will be in a dedicated filter tank, with water entering the filter tank via a diffuser (pipe with holes drilled into it) and returned to the fish tank via power-head.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?104436-Filtration-Comparison-Study

GG - if you are right, there are a lot of folk who have been sucked into this "Claim" and that they may have only produced a new type modular Bog-Filter.

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so if you have a sudden release of ammonia and hardly any bacteria because you normally take the ammonia out.... 100% guaranteed dead fish.

and that is exactly what I am talking about and IF the claim is correct that Zeolite - (FRESH ZEOLITE) will absorb ammonia, then why can't that be exploited to quickly draw down the ammonia concentration.. either it absorbs or it does not..
BUT in a salted system, and if the statement is correct that Zeolite has a greater affinity to the chloride ion, then perhaps it will have NO EFFECT on ammonia concentrations, and NEVER use it and then add salt ..

still the unanswered question.. IF it does absorb ammonia , will the normal bacteria present, slowly eat it up anyway, leaving no ammonia to be displaced by the chloride ions..
..
.


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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 14:21 
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I certainly didn't say it didnt work, I said it didn't "attract" Ammonia as you put it, it just reacted with any ions that encountered it in the solution flowing past it. Big difference. Solar panels don't attract solar rays either, but I'm sure you know that I know that they work. :lol:

If it reacts with the Laterite, it forms new compounds, which the nitrifying bacteria may not work on, so the dead fish issue could arise as mentioned by Yav.

I did read through some of it, but then got to the tldr stage, as it isn't relevant for what I'm doing and I don't have time to read the whole internet ;)

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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 15:12 
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I hope I did not cause this by my suggestion to Azira.
Zeolite works (and there are different types out there) by ion exchange a small amount in some cases and adsorbtion. As far as I am aware the swimming pool zeolite will just get full (sort of). The idea that the concentration of ammonia in the water effects this ie adsorb and release due to the ammonia concentration of the water I suspect is not sound. Salt and lime is likely to cause problems.
Personally I would not subject my fish to this type of filter. Anoxic and probably then anaerobic if things happen.
Mate it would be like walking a tightrope, get pissed one day and you will fall off. :)

This is only imho after a few beers; there again my son kept goldies in an aquarium with zeolite instead of gravel at the bottom of the tank and he used to put it in the filter and change it regularly (his friend used to work for a swimming pool firm so it cost him nix). I could never work out whether he was dead lucky or it really worked. I was a lot happier when he put them in a bathtub outside with plants in. :drunken:


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PostPosted: Sep 9th, '15, 15:35 
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Gunagulla wrote:
...... I said it didn't "attract" Ammonia as you put it, it just reacted with any ions that encountered it in the solution flowing past it. Big difference........


Do I incorrectly remember that in a given solution, ions will disperse and separate to an even density throughout.. (unless there is something like an electric field to attract them..

and IF I have a large concentration of ammonia on the out side of the clay and the laterite is "altering" the concentration INSIDE, then, will there be a kind of osmotic effect with the ammonia ions migrating to the LOW density area.. ((or... a combination of Zeolite and Laterite ))
That kinda sounds like "attraction" if we can use simplistic language... :think:

The whole idea is for the ammonia to travel through the clay and hopefully NEVER reach the center, because it is anoxically converted to N2 by the bacteria.. and so IF my memory is correct, and IONS do disperse, then I care not what the grammatically correct science is but that it works..

IF Zeolite does absorb ammonia ions, then I would wonder if that could also work..
IF the zeolite (for whatever reason) releases what does make it through, then the bacteria will have another chance of converting it -- BUT NO SALT.. :naughty:

I can only say that the more I read the article..
http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html
the more convincing it all sounds.. Perhaps they are using language that aint correct science, but allows the non-expert to understand..

NO - this is NOT something that normal AP would use, because AP is based on needing the ammonia as direct and indirect plant food.. but for a RAS system, those nutrients are a pest..

I have no doubt that Chris is interested in the concept,
and of the articles that I have read, I have found NOT ONE saying that it did not work, or that it was crap science...

Quote:
I hope I did not cause this by my suggestion to Azira.

PARTLY so, but not completely so..

It's just the interest in ANY way of reducing the need to do water changes to dispose of Nitrates..
and again - if you have NO AMMONIA, you will have NO NITRATES..
ATM.. I have about 300L of clay balls doing the normal thing, producing Nitrates.
I would prefer to use that clay under AP, and convert that bed to a Biocenosis bed

Quote:
....there again my son kept goldies in an aquarium with zeolite instead of gravel at the bottom of the tank...


And I have an aquarium inside with deepish scoria in it and I did not change the water for three years (just added filtered water), demonstrating (I assume) the Bog-Filter concept, and this basket idea is an adaption of that science... so with your son, I suspect that you could have a similar effect, plus the added benefit of the absorption..

I do assume that if you have a deepish bed of Zeolite, then yes it will absorb ammonia, but I imagine that is not the end of it and the anoxic bacterial conversion will still happen.. :dontknow:

Peter

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Quote:
Personally I would not subject my fish to this type of filter. Anoxic and probably then anaerobic if things happen.

I can't see any issue.. Each basket module is separated, and has fully oxygenated water flowing around it but NOT THROUGH it, and so IF I believe their science, then nothing can go wrong, at least no worse than if an AIR-Pump failed.. and no backup plan
..
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PostPosted: Sep 10th, '15, 00:22 
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If you believe in the science makes no difference in whether it works. So why does sodium Bentonite clay work these wonders, Assuming that laterite is magic and pulls the ammonia to it, why would the bentonite do something different than our hydroton? Also, so NO2 is nitrites NO3 is nitrates, N2 is nitrogen gas. Why would that happen with "anoxic conversion?" It doesn't provide any scientific explanation.


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