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 Post subject: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 13:07 
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Hi,

My name Affnan, into Aquaponics about a year ago, before that was doing water garden and normal aquarium fish. My setup located in Selangor Malaysia. I am migrating to bigger setup since this Aquaponics thing show lots of potential.

I have design a Bell valve system, its in youtube and on my aquaponics blog, its for the aquaponics community. Here in Malaysia its still in its infancy,, and some people mixed up aquaponics and Hydroponics unable to differentiate between the two.

Anyway.

Cheers

Affnan

http://affnan-aquaponics.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 13:34 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Welcome Affnan... cool pics.... and and interesting twist on the loop siphon idea...

Nice bell siphon as well.... but I think there might be quite a few people that have been using it before you "designed" it... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 13:56 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Welcome Affnan... cool pics.... and and interesting twist on the loop siphon idea...

Nice bell siphon as well.... but I think there might be quite a few people that have been using it before you "designed" it... :lol:


I agree, on the standpipe siphon.., but on the siphon with an standpipe adaptor and a leak hole,, none that I know off.

I may be wrong.

Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 15:26 
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I assume the "leak hole" is to help break the siphon??....

It's been done this way by many... same idea... different implementation...
Attachment:
autoSiphon2 (Medium).jpg
autoSiphon2 (Medium).jpg [ 24.47 KiB | Viewed 944 times ]

Attachment:
Bell%20setup (Medium).jpg
Bell%20setup (Medium).jpg [ 68.96 KiB | Viewed 940 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 15:30 
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And I notice on your blog that you are going to tinker with a pre-filter... nothing wrong with that...

But you say ....
Quote:
that will remove fish solid waste that are not needed in aquaponics.

On the contrary... we want the fish solid wastes in our growbeds... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 15:50 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
I assume the "leak hole" is to help break the siphon??....

It's been done this way by many... same idea... different implementation...
Attachment:
autoSiphon2 (Medium).jpg

Attachment:
Bell%20setup (Medium).jpg


The leak hole is not for stopping the siphon, its there in case of power failure or if you decide to switch the pump off occasionally so that the water will not be left standing if the siphon action do not happen just when the pump is selected off. Without the leak hole the siphon still work.

What start and stop the siphon is the venturi adapter made from pipe reducer 50 ~ 25 mm reducer. The reducer will create lower pressure at the convergence (Bernoulli Principle) hence causing water avalance. Stopping also due to this effect, water rushing in is out run by water rushing out. This may be difficult to achieved if not using an air tube just like the one you shown.

That design have flaws, over time the tube will get clogged up and cause problem, you need to clean it out. Some people have switched back to flood and drain just because of this issue.

The design I made eliminate this extra tube, hence the extra problem. Try it and comment, I have tested for about 6 month it did not fail, it works for pump ranging from 12 watt to 30 watt, that's give you broad margin. Bigger pump just step up the size.

I am trying to make prefilter, to reduce the fish waste. In high density fish breeding, the waste may be more then what we need for aquaponics that's why I am trying it out. Because I'm putting 1000 red tilapia fry in my new tank.. that may be too much for the plant to take.

The solid fish waste have value, but not too much,, the ammonia in the water is the bacteria use to convert to nitrate.

Cheers.

Affnan


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 16:28 
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affnan wrote:
The leak hole is not for stopping the siphon, its there in case of power failure or if you decide to switch the pump off occasionally so that the water will not be left standing if the siphon action do not happen just when the pump is selected off. Without the leak hole the siphon still work.

What start and stop the siphon is the venturi adapter made from pipe reducer 50 ~ 25 mm reducer. The reducer will create lower pressure at the convergence (Bernoulli Principle) hence causing water avalance. Stopping also due to this effect, water rushing in is out run by water rushing out. This may be difficult to achieved if not using an air tube just like the one you shown.


I'll have to take another look at your photos and diagram... I saw it just as a modified external "loop" siphon in your system...

I take it from what your're saying that the growbeds are actually suto-siphoned by a bell siphon, that's activated by the external "loop" siphon... :dontknow:

Quote:
That design have flaws, over time the tube will get clogged up and cause problem, you need to clean it out. Some people have switched back to flood and drain just because of this issue.

I've heard of people having problems of one sort or another with siphons... usually issues of flow...

But I've never heard of anyone having a problem with the break hose... "getting bloked"... and I'm wondering just what would block it... possible...

Quote:
I am trying to make prefilter, to reduce the fish waste. In high density fish breeding, the waste may be more then what we need for aquaponics that's why I am trying it out. Because I'm putting 1000 red tilapia fry in my new tank.. that may be too much for the plant to take.

The solid fish waste have value, but not too much,, the ammonia in the water is the bacteria use to convert to nitrate.


Your growbed filtration capacity may be too little for the density that you wish to stock at... but it's wrong to suggest that ...
Quote:
waste may be more then what we need for aquaponics... may be too much for the plant to take.


Nope the plants will take all they require... it's the amount of filtration that's critical... and if you have enough growbed filtration... you'll have enough plants to use the nitrates up... and growbed volume to deal with solid waste...

Nitrates are not a problem for fish, unless at ridiculous values... and we utilise the solids for mineralisation to provide the plants with trace elements and prevent dificiencies.... it has nothing to do with the nitrogen cycle, which as you say is the conversion of ammonia... it's a supplementary process..

1000 tilapia in your tank... how big is your tank....

Tilapia can be stocked at ridiculous densities in aquaculture.... IF... IF ... highly oxygenated... and highly filtered by external filtration....

From your photos, frankly... there's no way you'll stock 1000 tilapia.... without major external and additional filtration...

Seems you're going more down the road of traditional aquaculture... with secondary water treatment for some aquaponic growth...

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 18:15 
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My new fish tank about 4 x 15 x 2 ft. made out of concrete.

I think you get the Bell valve wrong, in my blog I've posted 2 type of siphon.

1. The loop siphon - to use with multiple growth bed.
2. My Bell siphon - to use with single bed.

These 2 are separate item, the Bell siphon never use air tube (never needed one) it use a venturi effect due to the stand pipe shape (this never been done before).

Have a look at the you tube video you may understand the valve better.

This link on how to make it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXaPn6SjvxU

This one on brief explaination on its operation :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzKUzcdeaI8

Point to note, it never need the leak hole to cutoff siphon, its there just because I needed to switch the pump off at night.

These are quote from thread here in Hardware, on the siphon problems.

Quote:
Yeh, I have used Murrays siphon system. Don't like it at all. Told Murray they were crap but he told me that he didnt know of anyone else with this problem. I have a commercial system that I bought off Murray that is set up as a flood and drain. Works without a problem. Also have a smaller 1000 litre system for my fingerlings that I bought from Murray. This was set up with the siphons. I found that they always blocked up or would start emptying the growbeds before they were not even half full. I also had issues with them not even emptying and my growbeds overflowing. I converted them to flood and drain about 9 months ago and havent looked back.

My advice is ditch those siphons and use flood and drain. I have never had one issue with the flood and drain system. Had plenty of issues with the siphons. In my opinion Murray Hallams beds and tanks are the best quality in Australia and he is also switched on when it comes to aquaponics, BUT I think that the siphon system is CRAP and unless u do not have a life and can be bothered checking and cleaning them every other day, I wouldnt touch them.


Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 19:34 
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The comment you quote was a singular comment... and harsh... and not supported by anyone else in regards to the kits referred to....

It also came from a new user, that by their own admission, never called the manufacturer, or attempted to ascertain the problem or make any adjustment...

Nor did they ever specify... just what was "blocking them up"...

There are people who have issues with siphons... and personally, other than simple loop siphons, I don't use them... and favour a simple overflow standpipe, on a timer... which allows me to vary the amount of pump cycles depending on season/weather... including shutting them off at night if I wish....

Which is what you appear to be, and want to do....

So why not just run a standard overflow standpipe and be done with it.... :dontknow:

In fact looking at your video.... that's exactly what you've built... a standard overflow standpipe... with a cap on it... albeit, you've added a wider flange fitting....adapter...

The cap just happens to be a "bell" shape... whereas many of us just use a flat cap...

And often actually drill two holes in the base...

If you decide to turn your pump off overnight.... you'd better make sure you have some additional aeration... and/or external filtration...

Even more so in light of your desire to stock 1000 talapia....

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 19:45 
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Edited: (Well was meant to be)

Well I suppose you could call it a bell siphon... but it's pretty standard, other than the enlarged adapter piece... and the hole, which most don't have...

But you might as well have just used a standpipe...

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 20:00 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Edited: (Well was meant to be)

Well I suppose you could call it a bell siphon... but it's pretty standard, other than the enlarged adapter piece... and the hole, which most don't have...

But you might as well have just used a standpipe...


Its ok, I understand your frustration, my design is something different,, it works different from a standard stand pipe. I have tried stand pipe with a bell, and its unreliable. I have tried the air lines on the side, its extra pipe so extra problem. Took me 6 months of experimenting to get this one.

I think its unfair to pass judgement on something you have not tried. Build it, it only cost 5 buck the most... what you got to loose, at best you can prove me wrong.

Cheers.. :bigsmurf:


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 20:13 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Hey .. if it works for you... great... and it looks good..

So would I be right that you pump continually??..

With an 80mm outer cover... you could have probably generated the same siphon with at least 40-50mm stand pipe anyway...

Suppose it might make them more reliable with small pumps/flows... I'll play with them some day... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 21:30 
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Nope, I switch off the pump with a timer at night.

40 - 50 mm stand pipe will need a huge pump to create the siphon, then once created you will not able to cut off, with such such a big pump.

Then I guess its pointless to explain anyway.

cheers

affnan


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 22:45 
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Quite possibly... which is why most members use a 25mm standpipe and 50mm bell... :roll:

It's the ratios that are important.... and the flow rate of the particular pump...

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Malaysia
PostPosted: Jun 7th, '09, 22:55 
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affnan wrote:
Nope, I switch off the pump with a timer at night.


If you're using a timer... why bother with a "bell siphon" .... :lol:

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