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 Post subject: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 15:18 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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The aim is to build a small workable and economical system initially and progress to a larger version when I am competent in raising fish and growing veggies, put in simpler terms “gotta convince the missus”.

Background - No previous experience in aquaculture, hence no preconceived ideas apart from those gleaned from this site.

I will be starting from scratch and document each stage and the reasons and thoughts behind my decisions, please jump in and correct, suggest or amend if I stray or ask for clarification if needed.

One other point, I used to do worm farming, so have lots of bits just lying around waiting to be utilised.

Step 1. Invoke the 5 ‘P’ rule.

Requirements
Fish holding receptacle, grow bed(s) and all that other stuff

Fish Tank – checking the garage for availability have some chunks of wood, screws and black thick plastic to use as a liner.

Timber 150mm * 30mm treated pine – must ensure to keep covered so as no leeching
6 pieces @ 600mm, 6 pieces @ 900mm held together with 75mm (large) screws. Base to be of fence palings cut to size to keep liner off the ground, scrap lengths of black plastic cut to line floor and sides to protect the liner from any splinters or small stones causing punctures.

I now have a strong enclosure that is 90cm * 60cm * 45cm high, with a holding capacity of 216 litres approx and have taken the first (easy) step.

The black plastic sheeting I have arranged so that it is 4 layers thick.

Stage 2.
Procuring grow beds and designing a simple auto siphon.


cheers Ell

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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 17:51 
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Stage 2.
Procuring grow beds and designing a simple auto siphon.

Pipe size – 40mm outlet from grow bed to allow a large water flow and hence quick drain, this size may be a little large for this system but will be needed for a future project – so plan ahead.

The idea is to place a larger pipe with an end cap over the top of the 40mm and drain the bed quickly, so how to feed the water through a vertical pipe to start the siphoning action … thinking ... thinking
.
.
.
Crenellations
.
.
.
Let’s crenellate…

Theory
Area of 40mm drain pipe 3.1417 * 20 * 20 = 1256
Circumference of pipe (42mm) 3.1417 * 42 = 132 (outer diameter of pipe 42 mm)

So we need “crenels” cut to cover an area of 1256mm2, and we have 132mm in which to use less the pillar widths.

Require 3 pillars to support the end cap of the larger siphon pipe at a width of 10mm, this leaves 100mm of the circumference of the pipe that can be removed.

Depth of “crenel” cut = Area of pipe / circumference remaining 1256 / 100 = 12.5mm
Width of each “crenel” = 100 / 3 = 35mm

In summary, around the 40 mm drain pipe there are 3 pillars that are 10mm wide, with a spacing of 35mm and cut to a depth of 12.5mm.

Minimum size of outer siphon pipe
The area of the 40mm pipe (1256) is required to be available to draw up the water between the 40mm pipe and the covering pipe so the minimum area of the siphon pipe is double 1256, or 2512mm2.

Diameter of siphon pipe = 2 * Square root of (area / pi) = 2 * SQRT (2512 / 3.1417) = 56mm, 60mm taking into account the pipe thicknesses.

To put all that together, to make an auto-siphon device using a 40mm drain pipe “crenellated” requires a 60mm siphon pipe size MINIMUM so that there is sufficient area not to restrict water flow up the inside of the siphon pipe and down the drain pipe.

So what are the advantages of “crenellating” compared to the U-bend type, the main one is the height from floor to ceiling is only 12.5mm, compare this to a 20 or 40mm diameter pipe - and it takes up less space, now to see if it works???

A booking with “B” is called.

I have included the theory side so all can understand better what I am attempting and to check the logic of my thinking, of course, any discrepancies are really imbedded “fudge factors”.

cheers Ell


A drawing to help explain what I mean:


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AutoSiphon1.jpg [60.35 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 18:09 
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What size should the piccies be so that the slide bar is not required :oops:

Ell

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PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 18:19 
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I resize mine to web large on microsoft picture.


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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 18:43 
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Thanks Monya,

by the way that photo of me was taken at Edwardstown primary school, just off South Road

Using ACDC and you can resize by pixels

Think this is right (well it is on my screen) - test


Ell

deleted test size - still too big

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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 18:55 
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there - done it 8)

deleted original attachment, then inserted new version :shock:

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PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 18:56 
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Ahhh, another expat south aussie soaking up the queensland sun!


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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 19:33 
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I like the idea Ell. Just a couple of questions. Water only gets into the 40mm pipe through the bits you have cut out of that pipe - yes? The siphon stops when water gets to a level which is the same as the bottom of the 60mm pipe - yes? What do you plan to house this in to stop blockage from gravel etc - perhaps a standpipe? I think this would be the main advantage of a siphon of this nature. If in a standpipe then the 60mm pipe could be lifted at anytime to clear any debri that could accumulate in the siphon system and it could be designed so that the standpipe also provides overflow preventing drainage should the syphon fail to start at any time (eg clogging). What sort of flow into the bed would be required to get this siphon going (as oppoed to a constant flow of water through the drain).

Looks good mate - if it works and is reliable I'll definitely use your design.


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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 20:12 
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veggie boy wrote:
Looks good mate - if it works and is reliable I'll definitely use your design.


A challenge :twisted:



Good questions VB,
Correct on both, plan to have possibly a 90 or 100 mm stand pipe as a screen when I get to the gravel adding stage but wanted test the idea out first, need to look at breaking the suction and a few other small additions (I have 90mm pipe lying around here somewhere).

I will be covering length of the siphon pipe in relation to the bottom of the grow bed and water flow as we go along, besides - give me a break :roll:
it took ages to get one pipe inside another let alone try for a third.

Attempted to draw lines on the cylinder to represent the cut out and failed on that (sorry modified the drawing - failure is not in an AP's vocabulary)

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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 23rd, '06, 20:20 
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Where the pipe exits the grow-bed you would normally use some sort of prefab drain fitting with thread and nut. This area will normally be marginally thinner than the pip it is joined to - will this be an issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 24th, '06, 03:28 
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I'm not sure about that siphon LKB.

Here's an idea for you. you'll need to ensure the u-turn elbow on the internal pipe is inflexible so it doesn't fold and cause narrowing. This is, imo, about as nice a design as you'll get for auto siphons. The external pipe is a drilled standpipe, clog free and all.


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Standpipesiphon.jpg [19.46 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 24th, '06, 09:19 
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Aquaddict wrote:
I'm not sure about that siphon LKB.


Another challenge :twisted:


the idea came from a comment that johnnie7au made about "putting a lid on it and you have an auto siphon".

If the concept is not feasible then a "slight" modification to the direction of the drain pipe (ie put in a U-bend) can be adopted and I can lay claim to another brilliant modification to the auto siphon debate.

VB - re the weakening, I don't think so but will look at it at build time, the container and its structure need to be looked at first.

cheers Ell

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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 24th, '06, 09:27 
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G’day,
Perhaps a fuller explanation is required, aquaponics lends itself readily to modular form and I am attempting to go through and cover each module/stage one at a time in this thread.

There is also a discussion on information gems being scattered throughout this forum, plus minor items of which pipe size to use etc has been mentioned. I found that when surfing this site I became very engrossed in the concept of aquaponics but also came up against the same problems that all newbies were facing, so I decided to jump in – boots and all- before those arch enemies “procrastination” and “lethargy” asserted themselves and my ideas remained as that.

Initially I also wanted to steer away from having a long winded post that people got bored reading and so my introduction was lacking slightly in knowledge - this has been brought to my attention by the questions asked - this is good.

Stage 1
Fish tanks – this has been discussed in depth from stainless steel vats to FRP water tanks and is a personal choice, so to get started I quickly knocked up a box that would suffice temporarily and move on to the other stages. Once my ideas have been tested to work efficiently (the lab tests) then I will advance to field testing and selecting a more comfortable tank for the fishies.

Stage 2
Grow beds – reasonably small in size but with sufficient depth (30cm+)
Auto siphoning – move large volume of water in a small period of time, this requires size of pipe to be used.
Medium for bed – gravels/pebbles readily available

Stage 3
Solar heating – types available and ideas on how to incorporate into the overall system, this is now not so critical for us southern “hemispherians” for the next 6 months.

Stage 4
Pump selection to match water flow requirements

Stage 5 and onwards
Cycling and stocking tank – getting vegetation – modifying & improving
And anything else that I have forgotten

I am not sure if my ideas are really practical, so I am going to lab test each one in the garage to carry out modifications more easily before connecting it all up and field testing.

Stage 1 is complete to the extent that a “water holding receptacle” is available, but because of its bulk may not use it during the laboratory tests.

Stage 2 has begun (in theory) and I will be visiting likely places to purchase the items required today.

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PostPosted: Aug 24th, '06, 20:03 
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Stage 2
Collected two 125 litre and one 80 litre storage bins, the bins are on rollers with lid, checked underneath & rollers easily removed, strengthening bars across the base and reasonably sturdy but not stated food grade, opaque transparent colour only but I can line with black plastic

3 metres of 40mm DWV pipe and DWV fittings (elbows & ‘T’)
1 metre of 65mm pipe and end caps
Physically checked that the fittings and pipes were correct
Silicone sealant
Hole saw tool to fit my drill
3mm tubing

I tried to get grommets for the 40mm pipe but got sent from one company to another, even tried a plumbing supplier – no go.

Assembly
Large bin/bed measures 70cm * 46cm * 40cm so now some measurements can be calculated:
Depth of medium 30cm ~ 100litres/grow bed
Length of drain pipe inside the container 25cm + 3cm to fit an elbow underneath the bed and flush against the base, this will add strength around the hole.

Cut out the crenellations, cut a hole in the base of the bin and inserted and sealed the join with Silastic and left to set.

65mm pipe was available with end caps so have heaps of space between that and the drain pipe (40mm).

Siphon pipe I am cutting to 24cm, 1cm leaves a large area to accommodate the amount of water to escape and any little floaties should easily be sucked under and through the pipes, if this does prove to be an insufficient gap (10mm) then it is easy to shorten the length of the pipe. End cap fits very snugly so does not need adhesive to hold and thus can be easily dismantled if required.

Now have a whole weekend to test this out and the rest of the night to catch up on the posts, here’s a photo of the drain pipe mounted:


Attachments:
Drain Pipe.jpg [90.72 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Ell's basic system
PostPosted: Aug 24th, '06, 20:08 
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Test it now - I want to know if it works :x .


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