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PostPosted: Jul 18th, '16, 15:21 
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However sometimes Yav engages his keyboard before he thinks (and I think that there is sometimes a language/culture difference between what is said and what is meant) :lol:


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PostPosted: Jul 18th, '16, 16:13 
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Thanks all,

should not beeing rude but after 4 years testing and teaching the family what's all about I don't need to be called a *f* person.

I think we have put it the right way and a rule of live is.
"The professionals give advises and making money (that's how i do it in my Projects)"

but most of these ideas came and are coming from the"common crowd" as they are still in a world of trials.
We use to say: new brooms sweeping better.

No bad feelings but I have seen there is life in this forum and it just got activated. I repeat: (that's how i do it in my Projects)" :laughing3:

Continuum, thanks for reading the Thread twice.. :thumbright:

so any Idea as small it is can give that commercial thread a benefit for many others that might just now standing at the border to a dream, but there might be the one of 1000 who benefits from new inventions.

Cheers

Will


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PostPosted: Jul 18th, '16, 16:26 
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Cheers,

sure is that we had ton do a lot of things practically because the family is since generations farmers and before my time most have done about 4-6 years very basic school.
So I cannot come up with educational english. I have to go the step by step way. Dragg them to a Supermarket, buy the expensive imported stuff, cook it, let them try and then get fro my daughters in Germany the seeds.
Half we put in the ground and a few plats in the test farm under controlled climate.
Then they understand that can't do is wrong, can do is the answer if you make it possible.
The don't know Greenhouses, cooling Pads and all that stuff but now after 4 years they even found a receipe for fully digestable fish food and waste management.
Not studied but practically gathered..

TIT = This is Thailand or lets say amazing Thailand!


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PostPosted: Jul 18th, '16, 20:54 
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See Will,
I read your previous post with the drawings. There are quite a few issues with the overall setup. Have you calculated your total veggie growing space? This will help dictate the # of fish you will be able to run successfully without dumping nutrients. Also, what is your flow rate through your fish tanks and rest of your setup? What sort of filtration are you planning to use?

Thanks!

Eddie

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PostPosted: Jul 18th, '16, 22:00 
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Cheers eddie

I am just at the beginning from my small to the next phase 1800sqm planning..
Small worked well but bigger is now in the hand of my new research and also what others see and i might not have been taken into consideration
I note all bulletpoints that come up and respond as soon i get new ideas that might do things better.
The growing space is now based on 1 sqm greenery - 5kg fish on 60 ltr water. (in the www somebody told me 0.5 Kg for 1 sqft and 4 gal water)
sure a rough one but within the limits I learned till now.


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PostPosted: Jul 19th, '16, 03:50 
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When you get to commercial size, you need to change from rough guidelines to something a bit more tested such as feed rate/sq meter of grow space (usually raft beds). You will need to make sure your filtration is setup to correctly handle the feed load at max grow-out size and amount of fish you expect to have on hand. And max growout size/number should match your grow space.

Hope that makes sense...

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PostPosted: Jul 19th, '16, 13:48 
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yes makes fully sense, this was the first year an issue in my test system, too much hatchlings and then they grew and all was too high.

Lucky I have here an huge pond beside and don't need to feed the overstock to the neigbors.
They first cpl of month will be either used to start dead slow not like the last time.

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PostPosted: Jul 20th, '16, 19:37 
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Will, welcome.

Id suggest contacting one of our long term forum members named "Dasboot", he is in your area and if available will help you with the very basic foundations.

After a couple years R&D, come back and well talk business. Bring on 2018 woot woot!!

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PostPosted: Jul 20th, '16, 21:14 
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+1 on Charlies suggestion to contact DasBoot.


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PostPosted: Jul 24th, '16, 09:06 
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@See Will welcome.. I like your spirit but I think you made a lil blunder diving into a hugh project before understanding fully or employing a consultant that can handle the mechanics behind growing your vegies.. However I too wanna start going commercial as well soon and I don't mind experimenting with yours as well..

in saying that im no experts in the physical mechanics of the running of a commercial system hence my position.. However I have spent the last 7 yr trying to understand the mineralization process behind release of nutrients and proper plant growth.. the fishes I used were tilapia which are very resilient so I didn't have to worry much on water quality.. However my water clarity and chemical analysis was always on point.. so I cannot advice you on what equipments u need to buy of the bat.. but I can explain what processes you have to have within your system... so if u want to information.. I'll wouldnt mind share my experiences because it seems like noone wants to take the chance to help.. don't want to be responsible.. however I'll explain the biological aspect on it and its up to you to transpose info to fit the equipments you got.. so u up for a challenge.?

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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '16, 03:22 
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Hi Cookie,

cheers for the offer and sure I am highly interested.

It's now a bit about the technics as there I am a bit faster learning.
Beside growing hydropnics about 30 years ago. That was basically water and fertilizer mix, nobody cared about bio.
I am not going the fast way and if i see I am not up to date in 2-3 years I'll hang another few on.
I am one way ($$) ready for pension but on the other way feeling too young (53) to do so.
And I am since 13 years with my wife togther, have a lovely family behind me and we are spending most time together as soon I am at home. There is always time for a yek yek and especially when a stranger comes to visit and mentions who the farang is then this family has a go on him. I am lung, nong shai or pi'Shai and not farang.
This is the reason I give also all my heart to them and try now that the kids have an easier life as digging in the rice fields for almost nothing.
I myself just want to know how to do and how it works to give it forward converted in a language a Thai farmer and sons understand.
There is actually my challenge.

As soon there are some technical lessons learned I'll go into the biology of it, nice if we can have a chat about that.

cheers

Will


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '16, 08:18 
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hi will I loved that introduction and honestly I really felt if u started off the thread like this before.. a lot more ppl may be willing to assist..

Anyways let's dive right into it.. first of all I need you to upload some photos of your trial system and some dimensions interms of fish tank volume and GB surface area based on these we calculate the required flowrate needed.. Secondly what type of fishes u planning on growing.. thirdly and most importantly.. Filtration!! both aerobic and anaerobic mineralization is needed to maintain balanced nutrients release.. promoting bio diversity is the key to success mineralization.. and honestly after a lot of development I did. its actually very easy to do and can also become very cheap...
Alot of ppl here believe that solid removal is required for best plant growth but then complains about plant deficiencies and nitrates spikes and so on... but think about it.. in a dirt garden all solids are retained to support the plants with ample nutrients to grow and develop.. so why not apply this practice to Aquaponics..
Now in saying this alot of ppl preachs that areobic mineralization is the go to process.. and I agree it the process that forms oxides of the nutrients with are more stable and most times soluable form of the minerals.. However aerobic process can shoot you in the foot when VOCs starts to go up which happens naturally when u feed your fishes.. The bacteria quickly uses they VOCs for growth and multiplication which directly absorbe nutrients which was intended for plant growth.. end up and the building blocks of the new biofilm because of excess free carbon in the system... when this happens the process switches from mineralization to immobilization.. and hence plant deficiencies..
ok so you may say of anaerobic digestion is the way... well the answer is yes.. and no at the same time.. anaerobic digestion handles Carbon much more efficiently because most of the carbon becomes CO2 and methane instead of biomass.. and at the same time releases alot of soluable minerals.. but also toxins like Hydrogen sulphide and loads of ammonia which may not be at some point beneficial currently because of leading to spikes and fish deaths.. but these negatives can be easily corrected by aerating the effluent of the anaerobic digester.. but why segregate the processes when one equipment can do degasing.. mechanical filtration and are the same time do aerobic digestion of the smaller solid particles and free ammonia... let me hear your views on this and we will continue soon..


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '16, 18:26 
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Hi mate,

I have here only my company computer and haven't got photos on it. i might spend another 91 days in this job and then my 183 days are done an the taxman gets on my heels.
Fishes:
i had very much sucess with Tilapia but everyone gots them.
Barramundi came next and Koi. After i tried Murray Cods but these are too oily, even the Thais don't like them.
Crayfish (Yabbies) were also a full success and they are now in my pond spreading as mad.
Pacus were brilliant but you won't get a supply of hatchlings in Thailand and after one lad in the forum told me how they were rampaging his pond the idea died. There is no chance as far i know to breed them in tanks as that requires a huge pond.
Also they don't go well along with other fishes and crays.
Mineralization:
atm is the stand of things to get a system I had in my test farm:
radial flow filter first, then a particle filter, e.g. sponge (I learned here in the Forum) that gets filled from below and make cleaning easier. There I want to add a Filter with brushes or plastic filter balls for creating a bug surface with bacterias.
The last filter made my test farm a sucess after I installed a Ebb-Flood system usind a Bell Syphon and granulate. I threw a handfull worms into the granulate and they spreaded explosive. As it got balanced it seemed for me that the worms were adding some important nutrients. All plants were looking very healthy, no colour differences and grew even faster. It must have been a result of this worm filter.. (nice to know if this was really a result or coincidence.)

the filters shall be big enough, what means big by 8 x 6000ltr fish tanks and 35200 ltr deepwater throughs? (I keep an option open to add 2 DWB (10080 ltr) more to come a bit more equal to the fish tanks)

nice to hear where the failure is ;-)

Cheers

Will


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PostPosted: Jul 28th, '16, 20:47 
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ok so in my response... your filter arrangement should be and anaerobic filter like a RFF before flowing into an aerobic filter after.. both filter should be sized atleast 1/3 to 1 times the total volume of your combined volume of fish tank... if u got space to increase trying increasing anaerobic filter which will allow for longer retention time and better settling of solids.. the anaerobic filter is never to be clean.. it technically cleans itself over time when the solids breaks down and when other floats up to the surface and flows into the aerobic filter.. thr aerobic filter can and should be cleaned for most 1 to 2 times per month... with bigger filter u may not even need to clean them.. because it gives the micro organism time to fully digest the waste.. Also to note grow area should never be factor in as filter because if these same processes are happening within the grow beds.. they rub the plants of dissolved O2 and also overtime clog your grow bed if using media.. now for water flowrates .. Idealy u want a pump that can drain your entire fish tank volume in 1hr to 1.5 hr.. and adequate Aeration..thats it really.. drum filters and external mineralization and all those expenses complicated stuff aren't really needed.. this is all u need for equipment wise.. plain and simple.

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PostPosted: Aug 4th, '18, 02:30 
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cookie wrote:
ok so in my response... your filter arrangement should be and anaerobic filter like a RFF before flowing into an aerobic filter after.. both filter should be sized atleast 1/3 to 1 times the total volume of your combined volume of fish tank... if u got space to increase trying increasing anaerobic filter which will allow for longer retention time and better settling of solids.. the anaerobic filter is never to be clean.. it technically cleans itself over time when the solids breaks down and when other floats up to the surface and flows into the aerobic filter.. thr aerobic filter can and should be cleaned for most 1 to 2 times per month... with bigger filter u may not even need to clean them.. because it gives the micro organism time to fully digest the waste.. Also to note grow area should never be factor in as filter because if these same processes are happening within the grow beds.. they rub the plants of dissolved O2 and also overtime clog your grow bed if using media.. now for water flowrates .. Idealy u want a pump that can drain your entire fish tank volume in 1hr to 1.5 hr.. and adequate Aeration..thats it really.. drum filters and external mineralization and all those expenses complicated stuff aren't really needed.. this is all u need for equipment wise.. plain and simple.

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There is a saying from years ago "You can't put 100 kg of Horse Shit in a 50 kg sack" seems that what Will is trying to do in this project.

There are 3 basic processes to building anything of this size.

1. Structual design: If Will has already bought the GH, he is going to be probably very disappointed that the system design he wants won't exactly fit inside, as to what he thinks it should. I'm pleased to help Will were I can, but when I ask a question, I expect a answer. Leave the "FLUFF" out of that answer, such as referring to a German bunker from WW-11.

2. Mechanical design: This is what runs the entire system, and all the plumbing to make the system flow as expected. So far he's only has mentioned that he can get a pump rated at 5,000 l/hr drawing 1,000 watts to run everything, and he wants to pump up to head of 3.8 m's. Even I know that is impossible.

3. Electrical design: For this size project Will is probably going to have to put in at least 2PH, and maybe even 3PH electrical distribution system.

As for all of you that think that he needs more than what he can find here for his system. Remember that all the other's that you speak of, started off in the same place. Murray was with Gary in the early days of APN, just to mention one. the other commercial projects did the same.

So Will and any others, I'm going to post on the other Topic ""start a new family project in Thailand". Comr on by and see what I have to offer Will. This is the topic that has all of his drawings on, so it will be easier for you to see what I'm showing him.

See Ya


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